Lois & Clark Forums Forums General Discussion FoLC Productions New Video: When I See You Smile

I've loved this song for a long time and when I heard it again a few months ago, I saw nothing but Lois and Clark.

When I See You Smile Windows Media Player version

Thanks to the www.folcvideo.com website for hosting!!!

EDIT: Andrea had already made a video to this song, but I wanted to tell a different story with the song.

Yay, I've always liked this song... I did find it just a trifle slow-moving, but I guess the song's pretty slow-tempo, too You had some great image matches in there, though, and I noticed the progression through the seasons -- we got through all of Season 2 in two clips? I only find that hilarious because that's basically what I did, too, on my first video

Let's see what else you can do, Sara!

PJ

I ADORE THIS VIDEO! I got to watch the hair pulling and the pain while she made most of this on the couch or on rachel's bed. Thus it is my favorite sara video!!!!! woot woot thats it's done!! and i'm going to rewatch it not cuz i like the end or the black shirt or anything so yeah
jen

Sigh....verry romantic. Loved it. Laura

You've induced the "goofy cheek hurting grin" on me again Sara. You guys gotta quit doing this to me, my hubby's going to think I don't do anything at work but watch Lois and Clark music videos.

Bravo Sara!

TEEEEEEEJ

Hey Sara!!!


the video was.... Awwwwwwwwwwwwww....

Well, no Lexes but still really cool and sweet.

Loved it.

Awwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwww, I love this vid, You I do sara. When you were working on it over here, I was happy, cause I love this song. And it didnt bug me too much

I love the parts, where the lyrics go, "I can do anything" I think those are my fave parts. Love the vid sara, It's very sweet.

Rach

Though I'm sure it's probably a coincidence -- because, really, this song can't be done a LOT of different ways -- it's really similar to the take someone else did on it about a year ago. REALLY similar in some parts. (Was anyone else aware that it had been done before?) I know this probably wasn't intentional, and there are differences, and there's no FOLC law that says only one video may be done to every song in the world (this was discussed in the All-Star topic a week or two ago). I mean, there have been a couple of (very different) videos done to All-Star now, and two totally different takes on Holding Out For a Hero. I am all FOR being cool about letting 2 fans of L&C do the same song for a video. All I ask is that we all check the websites of the main video makers (you know who those are... and the folc video site too, of course) before posting a video, and just -- you know -- making sure your creation isn't too similar to one that's already been done to the same song. Not only because you SHOULD want yours to be considerably different for creativity and variety reasons, but because... if you post something that's insanely similar (even accidentally) to someone else's... I'm afraid feelings are going to be hurt.

And if you find that you've done a video to a song that's already been done, just... acknowledge it if you can, ie "I see this has been done before, but I haven't watched the other one, and I had my own take on it I wanted to explore." That's fine.

Sara, you show a lot of promise as a video maker. This is not aimed at you. This is just a plea to everyone here to please remember that, for every great idea you have, there's a chance someone else has had it, too. Just do a quick check to be sure. And you can still do what you want to do, of course, just make sure yours is really different or at least acknowledge the others', that's all I ask, thanks.

Wow… I have a lot to say and I’m not sure where to start, but above all, I’m going to be honest here.

Months before I had the necessary stuff (episodes and vid program) to make videos, I’d been listening to this song in my car, wearing out the poor disc on my cd player. I had huge chunks of the video made already in my head. Even when I got my new laptop with all the episodes and everything set up, I still didn’t start straight away.

Molly asks that Now… before I go on, I’d like to ask a question to clarify. I realize that Andrea can be considered one of the “main video makers” but I really am at a loss as to who the others are, since you pluralize. Who are they?

I did check folcvideo.com (which I understand to be fully updated to the best of the site owner’s ability) to see if anyone else had made this video and found nothing. I thought I ought to check Andrea’s site as well, since she does make a number of videos and for whatever reason, does not have them all listed on folcvideo.com. Luckily, her site was up and running and I did find that she’d made this video. I downloaded it and watched it once to see if any of the images that I’d had in my head were the same. I saw one or two clips that I’d planned on using, but was pleased to find that the storyboard I had in my head was wholly different from what Andrea had done. Until tonight, that first occasion was the one and only time I watched Andrea’s video.

It was a few weeks before I could actually sit down and start on the video during my vacation. By this time, I’d completely forgotten what Andrea’s video looked like, I only remembered it was different from what I had in mind. I had a plan to go season by season, which worked out for the most part… as Pam realized, season two kinda got skipped a bit. I had meant to mention Andrea’s video in my initial post, but I forgot. Please accept my apology for that, it’s been fixed.

I was utterly horrified to find 3 distinct similarities between my video and Andrea’s video after finding Molly’s post tonight and watching it again. Great Minds Think Alike? I’m not sure what to say. I did come up with these ideas on my own and I apologize for the coincidental similarities. The clips I mentioned earlier that I’d planned on and saw in Andrea’s video… well, to be honest, I don’t even remember what they were. I can only guess that they were the GGGoH clip and the HoL clip - highly popular clips , that unfortunately and coincidentally ended up in the same place in my video as they did in Andrea’s. The series of clips that I was most horrified to find so similar - heck, not even similar, exact - was the “Sometimes I wanna give up, wanna give in, wanna quit the fight.” I was looking for season three angst here and thought… what better way to tell the story and gloss over the wedding arc: clone angst, amnesia angst, oh crap Lois is in love with her shrink angst. This instance really upsets me since I was proud of such an inspired idea. Though, I guess I still can be, and Andrea can be too.

Now, there are a few other things that I’d like to bring up.

I don’t often visit Zoom’s boards anymore because I find my time limited and only wish I could keep up with two message boards of my favorite show. I was rather upset when this thread was brought to my attention. I’m sorry to hear that you feel it necessary to take down your site because of this. This thread, while not mentioning my name, makes me out to be a thief and a plagiarist. While I sincerely do apologize for the similarities, I don’t feel this warrants such accusations, especially when they were never brought to my attention by the concerned party.

Andrea, I did *not* intentionally copy your work and I really am sorry that the similarities were so striking. I don't see you as pathetic for being upset by this, but I do wonder why you didn't email me personally about this since it bothers you. Don’t make all of your fans suffer because of an unfortunate coincidence.

Sara

hmmm this whole you stole my idea stuff is making me want to go back to making spiderman videos and just drop out of sight. there are only so many lois and clark clips available. and if this really is a problem someone should have made a rule about it.

Hi Sara,

Checking the postings again, i saaw your reply about what people comment on 'copied' videos.

First of all, i'd like to say that if Andrea is claimed to be 'the queen of videos' she should not feel hurt when someone uses, intentionally or not, some of her ideas. We must not forget the people who should be angry at us are the singers and Warner Bros once these images and the song do not belong to any of us.

Not pathetic. I'd say... Too proud of yourself to the point that you make every feel they don't deserve to create anything unless they check with you if they are allowed or not to do so. I'd suggest some more modesty. If you feel hurt because people are copying (or not) your work, try to imagine how they feel when they are being accused of so when all they wanted was to start giving their own contributions to the site? I'd simply suggest you don't take it too personally. If you want to make it professionaly, then I suggest you start buying the rights of the images so only you can do the videos for L&C if that's what's annoying you so much.

Sarah, I believe we do not have to check for every video just to make sure someone never done that. I am tired of listening to wife complaining she was almost finished with a great video and someone else, who I won't mention the name, posted before she could post hers. All time wasted... All expectations down the drain.

My opinion is simple. Just don't compare videos. Everyone has the right to make videos about what they want or feel like creating. Don't feel awful because someone made a video about the same thing. If you know that you did not copy anybody's idea, then I don't know why you should apologize.

If the 'queen' has a problem about it, then let her have the problem. I can't tell how much I felt frustrated and hurt as well when they said I copied somebody's video. You feel like all your creativity doesnt really belong to you but to someone else. It's like we have to download someone's video just to make sure we are not making the same thing. Well, I don't really think that's necessary.

Everybody has a talent. If your muse is now motivated to do videos, Sara then please do so. Do not apologize because someone thinks you owe them some respect because you don't owe anyone anything. There's no hierarchy (if that's right) around, thus we need not to explain yourself.

If they feel any kind of hurt because of my comments, well so did I when in my first video I was charged of plageriarism. (That's how the important videomakers should welcome a newbie?)

I'm sorry but I'm coming to the conclusion that we are here just to worship some and not to present our own creations. It seems to me now that all the songs are taken and are under the property of some important videomakers just because they are so suitable for Lois and Clark that they can't afford having other people putting their 'pawns' on them.

I say: you go girl! I say: Yes, I worship the good videomakers! I say: They all have my greatest respect. However, I also say: Let us create whatever we please. Let us do the little things we want to because we are not here to take your places, but to share our imagination and creativity with other FoLCs. I say: You take it too seriously and if you are hurt by the things I am saying, then I strongly suggest someone start making a list of videos we can or cannot work with.

What are the songs taken? What are the songs the greatest videomakers allow me to work on? If I choose one song that doesnt have anything to do with the romantic stuff you do, will you allow me to post it? Do I have the permission to do so? Oh please tell me... I am trying to make another song and i don't want to hurt anybody's feelings just because I chose it. (I didn't and won't check if someone did a video about this one before.)

I hope to get some serious answers about this because honestly I thought this was for the fun of it. People take it too seriously around. If you want to be a professional, it is your right, but as I don't tell you how to run your life, I don't want to have mine ruled unless we stablish some rules about this from now on.

I even suggest contests. That's right. I think some people would be surprised and some egoes would shrink a little if we had some contests on a determined song.

I'm sorry if my statement sounds a little agressive, but I can't stand seeing people being attacked and some others implying that videos are being copied. I'm tired of seeing the same faces wanting us just to worship them instead of trying to bring something we wanted to do. (copied or not).

My apologies to all. I will also understand if any site administrator wants me to erase this message. This is simply a protest and not meant to hurt anyone. Not even the ones who already feel hurt.

Sara... YOU HAVE THE TALENT FOR THIS AND DON'T LET ANYONE TELL YOU DIFFERENT.

From your true fan and friend,

MDL.

Amen! Erica said everything I was to afraid to say!! We love you sara!!
Jen

Erica, I don't know Andrea at all, so I can't presume to speak for her, but I know that she has literally had music videos stolen from her in the past (remember the DVDs that someone was selling on eBay), so she's possibly over-sensitive to the situation.

I've read Sara's post - I don't think she deliberately copied from Andrea, despite a couple of strong similarities, and she has already made amends in acknowledging that Andrea had already made a video using this song.

I also looked at the thread where you posted your video. I don't know if there was any private email correspondence, but I never saw any accusations that you had copied her video. It seemed that she was simply pointing out the coincidence of both of you coming up with the song at around the same time. And as Laura later pointed out, she herself had already done a Dean video to All Star several years ago.

As has been said by many - including you - there is room for *all* videos. No one owns the rights to the songs or images used, so there can be no rules against more than one person using the same song.

And I understand that you are upset if you feel you were accused of plagiarism by the very person who now feels slighted by Sara. But some of your comments, no matter how you may feel justified in making them, are only going to inflame this situation further. I don't need to quote them here - you know which ones they are.

If there's room for all videomakers in this fandom, which I assume there are, then everyone has to step back and take a deep breath to let the air clear.

Kathy

I think we need, first of all, to cool a few jets.

I haven't watched either video (that I recall), so I can't comment on that aspect of it. Although I do think generally that historical events in this fandom have made us all perhaps a little more keen to immediately jump to the conclusion that we've been ripped off, rather than believing in simple co-incidence, than we perhaps should be. Which, although perhaps understandable, is a real shame.

Regarding the suggestion that all new members be made to check out each and every music video ever made before embarking on one of their own, well, personally, I find that a little unreasonable. How far would you want to extend it? Ten years from now will newbies still be expected to spend weeks trawling through what might be hundreds of videos by that point? All on the very small chance that they might overlap something done previously? I suspect that if they were, we'd get nothing new produced at all.

I also find the notion that certain video makers in this fandom are more important than others rather an uncomfortable and surprising one. That's certainly not how I see it. I think everyone here has a very special talent and I've enjoyed many of your videos. But I've certainly never considered that any one producer has any kind of special, elevated status over and above another. I'm not sure what justification there would be for that or why newer members would be expected to defer to any one producer. On what grounds?

All that I'd suggest is that all music video makers out there keep on making those videos we love. No matter who you are.

LabRat

I haven't seen either of the videos in question here - I haven't had the time. But I'd like to echo those who have pointed out that no-one has exclusive rights on songs or ideas here. That would be like saying that because I wrote a TOGOM adaptation early on in which Clark told Lois he was alive no-one else is allowed to write a story with a similar premise. As we all know, there are lots of stories with similar premises. And they're all different, and they're all good.

Andrea, I can appreciate that you were upset to see what initially appeared to be a similar video, and I hope you now understand that Sara did not intentionally copy you. I was somewhat disturbed by your posts on the other thread someone linked here. Do I understand correctly that you've taken down your site because you haven't been getting enough feedback? I would have thought that you'd been in this game long enough to know that there are all sorts of reasons for low amounts of feedback - people do tend to be busy from time to time, RL gets in the way, at the moment the Kerths are in the way. This lack of time applies to watching/feedbacking videos just as much as it does to fanfic. Plus I'm sure you'd agree that it's very important to encourage newbies, whether writers or video-makers. If I have a limited amount of time, it's entirely possible that I may decide to DL and feedback a video by a FoLC getting into it for the first time, not because I don't think one by Trenna or Lynn or Rach or yourself would be as good, but because new video-makers deserve our support and encouragement. And that's not being cliquey, Andrea. Cliquey would be when people only spent time giving feedback to the makers who've been doing this a long time. I'm sure you'd agree if you think about that.

I hope that everyone who's been making such wonderful videos lately will carry on making them and posting them - and if some are made to songs which have already been done, then the more the merrier, in my opinion.


Wendy

Sarah -- I believe in coincidences, and have experienced a lot of strange ones in my writing. Once I submitted a fanfic about two weeks after another person submitted one (so mine was submitted before hers was published on the archive.) Our stories were freakishly similar, were in the same genre, about the same length, both humorous, the main characters had similar names, and we'd both given the main character's best friend the exact same name. It happens.

My purpose for posting was to point out that the song had been done before, and that we should all try to remember that it's good to check. (more on this in a minute...)

I know that several years ago, a similar topic was discussed on the fanfic list. If you are "inspired" by someone else's fanfic to write something sort of similar, but with a different twist, should you ask permission of that first writer? Should you acknowledge where you got the inspiration from? But then, like in this case, what if the idea was yours before you ever knew it had been done? Then obviously you don't owe anyone anything! I mean, we don't want it to get to the point where, before every fanfic, we're thanking everyone we've ever met, just to be on the safe side.

The reason this is tricky, I think, is because there aren't that many music videos out there. I mean if you add all Andrea's, Corrinne's, Trenna's, Anne's, Erin's, Psychofurball's, and all the others who have done it, there would be maybe 100? 150? Compare this with the 2500 fanfics on the archive and you can see there's a major difference. If two people wrote similar fanfics, it'd be like "Oh, who has time to read 2500? It's definitely a coincidence." But since there are fewer music videos, one would expect this to happen less frequently. Having clips be the same? IT WILL HAPPEN. And I don't see a problem with it as long as everyone here is honest, which seems to be the case, and as long as there's no malicious intent. Which there doesn't seem to be. But every artist is going to be worried about this, I think, you kind of can't help it.

Mad Dog -- You're right. It should be an artistic thing. Like I already stated, I see no problem with two people doing the same song. I mean, there may be a million songs in existence, but only a slice of them are going to work for a L&C video. The pickings, as they say, are slim.

I agree, more power to anyone who wants to do whatever they want, as long as they're true to themselves and their love for the show.

But you know what? It's tough. We all want to be credited for what we do. It takes me, sometimes, thirty solid hours to do a music video. It takes people three and a half minutes to watch it. Sometimes they say "that was good" and then move on, and I'm like "oh... ok." I want more than that! But should I expect it? No. I mean I have like six fanfics on that fanfic archive of 2500. I doubt mine are even read anymore; nobody commented on my last one. There are newer stories (and, trust me, MUCH better ones, heh) and nobody (except for the magical few) have time to read 2500... and if they write fics, too, well then they're lucky they have time to read any at all!

In the FOLC world, there are not, at this time, more than a handful of instances of two people doing the same song for a L&C music video, to my knowledge. In fact, I can only think of four songs, but there could be more. So it's rare. It's a bit strange. But it's not, like, illegal. Since this whole thing is still so new, I just think... if you KNOW about another instance of someone doing it, it is just nice to acknowledge it.

Do you have to bow to anyone's expectations? Again, no. Mad Dog, I'm sorry you feel like there has been hostility, but honestly -- do whatever you want. I watch a LOT of people's videos, even "first videos," and have noticed many unique styles. As much as I love certain people's, I do often watch new artists' because variety is cool.

As LabRat said, it is a bit unreasonable to ask that we continue to meticulously keep track of who has done what. Okay, I agree.

And so... um where was I going with this? Okay, so Sarah? Keep making them. Everyone else? Keep making them. If anyone here would actually go so far as to rip somebody else off on purpose, then they're the ones we should worry about. So far I think it's just been that ebay guy, but as long as we all keep looking out for each other, I think we'll be okay.

Stepping in here as a concerned moderator.

Accusations of plagiarism are taken very seriously around here, and this includes the realm of videos as well as fanfic stories. As such, I'd like to make a few things clear.

First of all, NO-ONE owns the right to a song save the songwriter, artist and producers. As such, any song is fair game for use in a music video (in as much as any copyrighted song is fair game). And just as many, many writers have used LnC episodes as starting points or inspiration for stories, there is no reason that the same song might not be used by two or more video-makers with different end results.

Too, it is not unreasonable to expect that similar scenes might appear in videos making use of the same song. A song might inspire similar imagery in separate videomakers' minds, and since there is a limited quantity of usable video footage, some overlap is bound to occur as the quantity of videos increases.

It is, however, unreasonable to expect video-makers to be familiar with every single LnC video published in order that they might avoid using similar imagery. Just as a writer is not expected to know the contents of all 3,000 plus fanfics before writing a story, a video-maker cannot be expected to know the contents of every video. Indeed, many video makers might choose to intentionally avoid watching videos so that they can be assured that any similarity between their creations and a previous video is strictly coincidental.

As for a list of "main" video makers that needs to be consulted prior to making a video: No formal criteria has been established to determine the difference between a "main" video maker and a "minor" video maker, nor is there any intention to create one as such a concept is not in-line with the philosophy of these MBs. As such, I don't believe it is a requirement for a videomaker to check with any one person before beginning a project. This includes asking permission, consulting with, or even acknowledging prior claims above and beyond what the videomaker feels personally motivated to do. If someone is inspired by another video, it is only common courtesy to offer acknowledgement, but beyond that, there are no "requirements".

At this point, I don't believe any copying of videos has occured, at least not of an intentional nature. Sara has offered an explanation and indeed, an apology, for any similarities between her video and any previous ones. Unless more solid proof can be offered, I feel that this incident has been resolved.

What occurs on other boards is not a concern here. If certain artists feel strongly enough that they decide to remove their offerings, that is a choice they are free to make.

Lynn M
Board Moderator

Silly me! All this fuss, and I've forgetten to thank those who left feedback.

Pam, Jen, Laura, TEEEEEJ, Erica, and Rach... Thank you all SO much!!!! Maybe it's my fault that Jen's made two "evil" vids in the time it took to make this one.

Thanks again, everyone!!!

Sara (who has decided not to make any more mention of the issue that has been decidedly resolved by the moderator )

Wow...I don't post for a couple days and people are pouncing at each other here about videos.

Well Sara your video was awsome and I like the different approach you used on the song.

Please keep making video's you inspire newbie video makers like me to make more! You all do so well so please don't quarrel over rights to scenes/songs. It is really hard to find scenes in a show that ran only four seasons without repeating once in awhile.

~Lois Lane Wanna Be

Catching up...

Oh, very WAFFy, Sara. Just lovely. <happy sigh> And very deft touch on the images. Beautiful song too. Well done!

LabRat