Lois & Clark Forums Forums Fan Fiction Lois & Clark Fanfic fdk:Learning to Love, 17/?

Interesting. Well done.
Good at least he knows enough to understand something of what Lois is doing when she throws herself at him.

Good moves on Clark's part. I hope Lois will tell Clark something. But frankly the way this is going I don't expect the frank and open sharing they both need. Maybe in another thirty parts.

Brava Brava That's not a bad thing, is it?

Me the feminist is ready to explode!!!

Sam!!! I hate this Sam!!!

Ellen owes him her fidelity, but he owes her nothing of the sort? He doesn't even have to lie about his many affairs, yet he can demand total faithfaulness from her?

And you know what is most heartbreaking and horrifying about it all? It's that it used to be this way. Seriously. Consider the Bible. There are so many men there who have more than one wife, important men of God - Abraham, Jacob, Moses, David - and I won't even mention Solomon because he had seven hundred wives and three hundred concubines and even the Bible thinks he went too far. But the rest of those great men? How could they possibly be faithful to their first wife when they took themselves a second wife? And then perhaps a third and a fourth?

You know that adultery is one of the most serious crimes possible, according to the Bible? Ah, but then what is adultery? It can't mean that a man is unfaithful to his wife, because how can he not be unfaithful to her if he is perfectly entitled to take himself more wives, pretty nearly as many more wives as he likes?

No, adultery means that a woman is unfaithful to her husband. That is what it means, because in the Bible women are so often treated as their husband's property. That is why marriages in the Bible are usually business deals which are negotiated between the father of the marriagable woman and the suitor. So, for example, does it say that if the bridegroom accuses his wife of having lost her virginity before the wedding night even if that isn't true, then he will have to pay a fine to his wife's father!!! But if it is in fact true that the bride was not a virgin, then she will be brought to the door of her father's house and stoned to death by all the men in the city!!! (Deuteronomy 22:18-21.)

In the Bible, adultery is seemingly always a crime being committed by a wife against her husband! Yes, because she is her husband's property, and she is stealing herself away from her rightful owner when she is having sex with another, or even when she is flirting with another. He, on the other hand, can have sex with other women as much as he wants to as long as he isn't violating the rights of the male owners of those women!!!


A father giving his daughter away to the bridegroom at a modern wedding. I can't help it, I so, so don't like it when the father gives away the bride.

These traditions, which say that a woman is somebody's property and a man is a "free player" who can do what he wants in matters of sexuality, are so deeply rooted in our societies. Yes, things have changed now - not that these ideas don't still exist, what with all those fathers giving away their daughters to their future husbands and what with all those polygamist sects - but, indeed, today it would be hard for Sam to get respect from most other people if he said that his wife had to be faithful to him, but he didn't have to be faithful to her. But twenty years ago things were different. They were certainly even more different thirty or thirty-five years ago. In Sweden in the early seventies, the government commissioned a legal expert - a man, of course - to come up with a proposal for how sex crimes would be defined and punished in the future. Would you believe that this man argued that since women were no longer regarded as their husband's exclusive property, rape should no longer be regarded as a crime? Well, you know, because now there was no need to protect the husband's exclusive right to his wife's sexuality any more, and therefore it should be allowed for men to force women to have sex with them whenever the men wanted it! No, Sweden never got a law like that, mostly because a number of Swedish feminists argued so vehemently against it. Now, of course, no one remembers that anyone ever suggested that rape should be made legal, and rape is regarded as a most awful crime. And yet society has been so forgiving of men who have committed various sex crimes. For example, in the eighties a teacher I knew of had an affair with his own seventeen-year-old student. Guess what happened? The girl was forced to change schools during her last year of high school, so that the blame for the affair was put squarely on her. The teacher, a man in his forties who had been a teacher for almost fifteen years, was given no reprimand whatsoever.

I could go on and serve up many more examples of how society's double standards have led to the punishment of women and the acquittal of men, but I think you get my point anyway....

(And just because I've spoken so ill of the Bible, you do know that there is one man in the Bible who never for a moment accepted these double standards for men and women, don't you? That man, of course, is Jesus.)

Anyway. I'll try to get back to the details of your fic, Carol. I have been thinking of the fact that Lois was basically naked when Clark found her, and I think I understand what kind of horrible humiliation that must have been for her. Because Clark is the man she shares her home and her bed with. If she ever wants to sleep with him, she wants to do it on her own terms. To have been so rudely undressed for Clark to see must be so painful to her.

I have been so critical of your Clark because he didn't tell Lois right away about his superhuman powers. I also thought he was too gentleman-like with Mayson. But apart from that, I can find nothing to criticize Clark for. He has been wonderfully supportive of and patient with Lois. That is why I can't for a moment believe that he is going to take advantage of Lois in her present, distraught state.

I remember that Aunt Louise told Clark that she had given Lois her own lovely nightie, the one she never got to wear herself for the man she wanted to marry. But Aunt Louise said to Clark, "One day she'll wear it for you, and then you'll know." Well, Lois most certainly isn't wearing Aunt Louise's lovely wedding nightie here. I'm sure that Clark knows that in spite of what Lois says to him, he hasn't got her permission to have sex with her. Right now she is acting like a soiled piece of property, who is offering herself to her rightful owner just to preserve even a shred of her dignity - because right now she thinks that if she doesn't offer herself to Clark, he will take advantage of her anyway. But Clark most certainly doesn't want that kind of relationship with Lois. That is why I'm sure that he won't have sex with Lois in Colorado.

But how he can make Lois respect herself again, and how he can make her believe in herself and love herself so that she is able to give back that respect and trust and love to Clark - well, that's another matter.

What a riveting fic this is!!!

Ann

We interrupt this feedback by sparks of curiosity...

Okay, I haven't had time to pay attention to a lot of other peoples' feedback comments recently, but I have noticed this critique, and it sparks curiosity. So just to check myself, is it because they got married first, revelation second?

Back to our regular programming.

Ah, you spoil me, Carol. I love your posting schedule, which pretty much is, you just happen to post on the days I can read.

Ohh, I'm worried about Lois...Personally, I want Michael's option 1 where they both freak out and Lois opens her mouth and talks. About anything.

But option 4 is I worship angst, so I'm game for anything.
JD

Pardon the O/Tness of this, but just to grin about the Bible (and probably open a fort of worms), last Friday's lecture was actually about women in the Bible, and we harped a lot on how the role of women decreased as the role of the military in rising cities increased. :p But I loved it because we (in our hour and a half time slot) went through scripture and picked out the people like Deborah, one of the judges of Israel, who just stepped right over that inferiority and kicked some historical butt.

Carol, I hope and pray that I am never in the position that Clark is in and pray fervently that Elisabeth and my daughters are spared this from their lives. I believe it would be a crime of passion that would end the perpetrator's life...

That said, I am actually terrified to read the next chapter. I don't know how much more I can take.

TOC, I don't think we read the same Bible

Moses only had one wife.

Abraham's wife, Sarah, kept giving Abraham her servents because she couldn't have children, or so she thought (it did require a miracle of God for her to get pregnant). Jacob's father, Laban, got him drunk and tricked him into sleeping with Leah, and when Rachel also had difficulty having children, gave her servant to her husband.

And honestly, I am bewildered by the ancient cultures anyway. I can't imagine looking down on a woman because she couldn't produce a son or daughter! That makes me because it forces concubines and multiple wives on a man (and as stated above, it wasn't always the man's idea...).

Of course, there was the sheik that ended up married 300 to three hundered women because none of them had given him a son! This was before the modern understanding of how the sex is determined...

Now with David and Solomon, yes, they had waaaay too many wives and concubines. And that is not because of a son issue.

In fact, if you carefully read between the lines, you will notice that most of their problems stemmed from them having more than just one wife.


Yes, adultery is in the top ten, but the first is "You must not have any other god but Me."

And the Bible repeatedly says that a man commits the adultery and it is not always with another woman.

Exodus 34:16
Then you will accept their daughters, who sacrifice to other gods, as wives for your sons. And they will seduce your sons to commit adultery against me by worshiping other gods.

Leviticus 20:10
“If a man commits adultery with his neighbor’s wife, both the man and the woman who have committed adultery must be put to death.

Psalm 106:39
They defiled themselves by their evil deeds,and their love of idols was adultery in the Lord’s sight.

Proverbs 6:32
But the man who commits adultery is an utter fool,for he destroys himself.

Matthew 5:28
But I say, anyone who even looks at a woman with lust has already committed adultery with her in his heart.

I could go on, but the this link goes on for three pages and it would be a little bit overkill.

And even the most famous one, where the woman 'caught' in adultery is brought before Jesus? That one is one of the few passages that can be disputed as not being in the original document. And besides, according to the Leviticus passage above, both of them should have been brought before Jesus and he condems her accusers and tells her to sin no more.


In Deuteronomy 22:18-21, what you say is true, but if you read further in the chapter, if the man that committed the adultery is known, then he must die too. And, in verse 25, only the man is killed because it is assumed that the woman cried for help and there was no one to prevent her rape.

And, in the New Testament, wives and husband's belong to one another.

1 Corinthians 7:2-4
2 But because there is so much sexual immorality, each man should have his own wife, and each woman should have her own husband.

3 The husband should fulfill his wife’s sexual needs, and the wife should fulfill her husband’s needs. 4 The wife gives authority over her body to her husband, and the husband gives authority over his body to his wife.


Funny, I always thought that the reason that the father gave the bride away was because until the day of her marriage, he was her protector and defender. On the day of her marriage, the father turns that great responcibility over to the husband, who is to love her as Christ loved the church (Ephesian's 5:25)

Thank you for saying that Jesus doesn't accept double standards.

I realize that there have been many misinterpretations of the Bible over the years, both intentionally and not. Remember that influential men in the South used to use the Bible for years to enforce slavery as well, yet the Bible doesn't promote slavery, at least not the kind of slavery that we have had here in the states.

Abraham had several wives and concubines:

Note that Hagar is called Abraham's wife.

After Sarah's death, Abraham remarried, but he also had sons by his concubines:

I'm not absolutely sure that Moses already had a wife when he married the woman mentioned in Numbers 12, but I think so:

Please note what happened to Miriam when she criticized Moses - God gives her leprosy:

Note how a woman might normally be punished by her father:

James, that passage from Exodus 34:16 does not refer to men being adulterous by having sex with women they are not married to. Rather, they commit adultery against God by worshipping other gods. In the Old Testament, wives commit adultery against their husbands, but men never commit adultery against their wives! Men can only commit adultery against other men - by having sex with other men's wives - or against God, by worshipping other gods.

Similarly, by the way, the quote from Leviticus refers to men who commit adultery against other men by having sex with other men's wives.

I realize I'm going seriously Off Topic here, but I just have to insist that it has long been acceptable for men to be unfaithful to their wives, even in the West. In Sweden, parish registers have been kept since, I think, at least the 18th century. During the mid 1800s, a rich merchant lived with his wife, his daughter and his housekeeper in a fine house. The man slept with the housekeeper, and the wife accepted it. But then the husband got himself another maidservant, and he quickly started having sex with her, too. Now the wife had had enough, and she applied for a divorce. It took more than a year for her to get that divorce, and she was forced to move into a very small room in an attic, and she and her daughter lived there in poverty for the rest of their lives. The husband lived with his two mistresses in his big house and had several children with them. Guess what the minister wrote about the husband and the wife in the parish register? About the wife he wrote "Divorced". About the husband, he wrote "Honourable man of high standing".

So when Sam said to Ellen that she had to be faithful to him, but he didn't have to be faithful to her, he repeated a message that many husbands have told their wives over the centuries.

Ann

I just want to say - for the record - that Sam is bottom feeding scum sucking slime. His views, as outlined in Ch. 17, to not reflect the beliefs of the author, *her* husband or anyone she knows.

I figured you guys knew that but thought I should stick it in there.

I am DH's and he is mine - alone. And that's the way it should be IMO.

Sam, however, if he wasn't dead, would need Michael's bat taken to him a few times.
Carol

Totally agree.

TOC, you are correct, Moses another wife before he fled for his life after killing the Egyptian.

And yes, historically, men have treated women badly, shamefully and dispicablely(however you spell that). And, unfortunately, the increasing moral decline in Western nations will probably lead to another wave of the same in decades to come.

At this point in history, women are enjoying more 'freedom' than ever before. Could it be better? Yes, definitely. Will it get better? Only God knows.

We live in a fallen world.


James

Lois, what are you doing??!! I am appalled! Yes, I reluctantly admit I can kind of understand her reasoning BUT I have really hoped she knew Clark by now!

Poor guy! I in his place would have no idea how to deal with Lois at this moment. He's so caring, considerate and trying hard to put her needs first when he really wants to do something to Paul...

Lois, what happened was aweful but you will get through this, like you have been a survivor all you life already. But you don't have to do this alone.

Please let them talk and let them talk soon!
Yes, Sam was scum but Clark isn't.

Natascha

Oh, no!!! Lois!

Yeah, the "logic" works, but it's so twisted! Poor Lois. I really hope Clark realizes what's going on. I'm sure he will. He has to. He's dense, but he's not that dense, right?

Forget grading, just keep writing. My professors take eons to return my stuff, so I'm sure your students are used to it from their other professors. If not, they can wait.

I've been awful - looking for a new chapter whenever I'm online and always so excited to see one, but not leaving feedback. I'm sorry - I have no good excuse.

But I love this story. It's so complex and sweet and sad. I have to agree with everyone else, the logic in this chapter works for me, although it was surprising. But I spend some of my free time working on a hotline for crime victims and most of the callers are for sex crimes. While I've never had a caller express the things Lois is feeling here, the range of things I've heard makes me think that this is more than possible. Particularly if you have the upbringing Lois did.

Overall, this has been an incredible story all along, but these last few chapters go well beyond that, handling a very sensitive topic extremely well.

Carol, for the record, no one who agrees with Sam's views would have written Sam and Ellen the way you did!!!!

This is a wonderful story!!!!

Ann

First let me say that I'm well pleased with how Clark fully discloses, as best as he is able to, what happened to Lucy. This is not a time for secrecy even if it does feel protective.

Second I feel like Clark is set up. If he has sex with his wife he is hurting her. If he does not he is "rejecting her" because she is "soiled," if I can use the same twisted logic that Lois does.

Hopefully she will start to see this clearly. However, she has had a skewed vision for months. I doubt it will clear under stress.

That means that it is going to continue to get worse before it gets better.


Elisabeth

Thank you again everyone .

Framework - LOL! *Another* thirty parts?!!? Okay - originally this was supposed to be like 26 parts, but that was when I, naively, thought I could wrap up the Paul thing in 1, MAYBE 2, parts. It's up to something like 6 or 7 now and not done...

Michael - thank you . Hmm... I'm not sure which option sounds good... Not showing their vows wasn't intentional, I promise. Twice a day?!?! If you want me to run out of buffer by Thursday... No - hurting bad guys isn't a bad thing .

Ann - Yeah, I hate this Sam too. Yes, it was painful for her. As far as what happens next... I'll post later today and we'll see if your faith in Clark is justified. Riveting? That's what I was hoping for but doubtful that I'd succeeded. It's nice to hear that I have.

JD - Yes - they got married then revelation occurred 3 months later. Ann's been critical of the three months - not necessarily the married first, but the time frame. I'm glad the posting schedule works for you . Michael's twice a day isn't going to happen, but if I ever manage to get the thing done, I may bump it up. Deborah rocks. One of my favorites is Abigail - regardless of the whole David thing [multiple wives or whatever] - she saved her whole family and that's nothing to sneeze at. And that I happen to have a daughter with that name... [okay, actually it was more of an Abigail Adams thing but...]

James - heaven forbid it's ever needed, but I'm sure you could find plenty of people to provide you an alibi. The sad truth is that something like 1/4 - 1/3 of all women will be assaulted at some point in their lives. There's 4 women in my house. That scares me. I hope the next parts work for you.

Natascha - Poor Lois and poor Clark. Lois is a survivor and Clark isn't scum. Talk? What's that?

Rona - Clark is a dense lunkhead. You know - I got an email from my boss the other day because a student [who didn't contact me] emailed her saying that my grading was 4-14 days behind and how was he supposed to know something about his final. NOTHING was 14 days behind - I think 8 was the most since something had been turned in - and by the time I got the email, it was all done. She actually asked me if I needed her or another boss to 'help' me with the end of the semester [am still incensed - there's lots of other stuff there]. I was tempted to say 'yes, i have fic to write' .

Anon - I'm glad to hear you're reading! I'm glad you're enjoying as well. That's a wonderful thing for you to do. I don't know that I could.

Ann - thanks again .

Elisabeth - Clark is stuck between a rock and a hard place, isn't he?

I got the next part back from Beth a little while ago and will post it sometime today.

Thanks again!
Carol

Okay, I'll hit 'refresh' every minute from now on.

Well, I feel sorry for Lois and for Clark. She is a basket case. Poor Clark is looked at as the bad guy in her eyes. Tsk Tsk. And how can you leave us like this? Please tell me he is too smart for this and smells her fear. Laura