Ann wrote:
You mentioned four females as examples of a pernicious American culture that makes America hated abroad, but you didn't mention a single male person. I can only conclude, Terry, that just like so many conservative Muslims, you too think that the "shamelessness of women" poses a great threat to society. It is not too farfetched to conclude that you would like to rein in and control women, perhaps in a way reminiscent of how the Arab-Muslim culture reins in and controls the overwhelming majority of its women. (I note that you felt sympathy, or at least understanding, for the frustration of the Arab man who might contemplate honor-killing his daughter for imitating Lady Gaga.)
You may have read the Bible, Ann, but you don't understand it. How do I know? Because you read my words and you didn't understand them.
You are putting words in my mouth - again. You have accused me of attitudes I do not possess. You have all but made up out of whole cloth an accusation that I'd like to "rein in and control" women in today's society. I assure you that I do not control my wife or my daughters.
If that accusation were true, why do I hang around a message board where the majority of the regular participants are female? I can guarantee you that I don't control a single one of the ladies on this board. And I am insulted by your insinuation that I "felt understanding" for the Arab man who might be tempted to honor-kill his daughter. My understanding is for his frustration for his daughter acting like Gaga,
NOT for his desire to kill her.
Whatever else you might say in this thread, I would very much appreciate a direct apology from you on this subject.
Does the Bible require that a woman obey her husband? Yes. Does the Bible require that a man love his wife in a sacrificial manner, putting her needs and desires before his own? Yes, and the paired requirements are in the same passage in Ephesians chapter 5. You are, once again, cherry-picking Bible verses to support your position and dismissing those which do not. This is not an intellectually honest way to discuss an issue.
Does the New Testament forbid polygamy? No. However, Jesus said on several occasions that the one-man-one-woman marriage for life was God's plan. And Paul forbid the brand-new churches in Asia from calling pastors (bishops in some translations) or deacons who had more than one wife. Clearly the ideal is one husband and one wife.
This one, though, makes my teeth grind.
Actually, it is at least possible that the Bible could be used to legitimize honor killings. In Genesis 38, Judah orders his widowed daughter-in-law Tamar to be executed, because she has become pregnant without his permission. The fact that he spares her life has little do with the fact that he finds proof that he himself is in fact the father of her child(ren), and it is more a consequence of an obscure Israeli law that gave a widow like Tamar the right to ask for a child by one of her husband's relatives under certain circumstances.
If that isn't twisting the narrative to fit your preconceived ideas, I don't know what is.
Tamar was
not spared due to some obscure Israeli law. At that time, there was no law given to Israel. Tamar and Judah were operating under a much older set of tribal (NOT national) laws, ones which were designed to protect a childless widow from being alone and destitute in her old age. At that time, children were expected to provide for their aged mothers after their fathers were either dead or unable to provide. As a childless widow, Tamar would have been destined for a life of uncertainty at best and grinding poverty at worst. Judah had denied her the comfort of a child to take care of her in her old age, so she resorted to subterfuge to obtain a child from Judah himself.
And this one:
The Bible makes it very clear that arranged marriages were the custom in those days, and nowhere does it say that such an arrangement is forbidden. The Bible also doesn't contain a single story of a young girl who defies her father by refusing to marry the suitor he has chosen for her. So if we are to live like they do in the Bible, arranged marriages would be a natural thing.
Gah.
The Bible is not a book designed to change cultures or societies. It is a book intended to show that man is incomplete without the Lord, and that the Lord has taken the necessary steps to bring both parties back together. Even today, many societies which are not Muslim arrange marriages between young men and women. You speak as if choosing one's mate is the natural way and the best way to do it. It ain't necessarily so.
One more:
In a society ruled by the Bible, Terry, women would not necessarily have any more rights than they have in a typical Muslim society.
Really? Mary, the mother of Jesus, is given a position of honor in Christianity. She is a major player in the story of Jesus, while her husband Joseph barely pokes his head above the ground and is never quoted. The first witnesses to the resurrection were women, not matter which Gospel account you read. Women are prominently mentioned throughout the New Testament as people who were just as important as any man (such as Aquila and his wife Priscilla, Lydia the seller of purple in Phillipi, Apphia the wife of Philemon). Your assertion that Christianity does not treat women well does not hold up to close examination.
The Bible tells us that we are supposed to tell the truth to everyone all the time. The Bible tells us that we are supposed to deal honestly and equitably with all people. The Bible tells us we are supposed to live peaceful lives. The Bible tells us that we are supposed to remain faithful to and love our spouses. The Bible tells us that we are supposed to love and provide for our children. And if everyone in the US lived like this, we'd have a lot less to talk about on the evening news.
