Lois & Clark Forums Forums Fan Fiction Fanfic Related Improving one's writing

On the subject of speaker attributions, I think it's important to remember why writers use them -- to let the reader know who said what. So you don't even need an attribution for every line of dialogue. As someone said, it's annoying to read:

"Clark, I can't find the Wilson file," Lois said.

"Gee, Lois, I can't remember where you put it either," Clark said.

"Well, I need it to finish this story," Lois said.

One way to avoid a string of "saids" is to either make the dialogue clear as to who is speaking. (In the above example, it might be clear with no "saids.") If the sentence before indicated that Lois and Clark were at her desk, it would be clear that Lois said the first sentence, then Clark, etc. Another way, which got discussed earlier, is to use "beats" to show who is talking. And it's always good to remember with any technique that moderation is the key. You don't want too many beats any more than you want too many "saids" or too many other attributions.

If I were writing a fic with the three lines above, I would probably do it like this:

Lois flipped through the stack of manila folders on her desk, her frustration growing with each file.

"Clark, I can't find the Wilson file."

"Gee, Lois, I can't remember where you put it either."

"Well, I need it to finish this story."

The beat at the beginning lets us know Lois's mood and indicates that she's the first one to speak. From there, it's pretty clear who said what.

Schoolmarm

ROTFL! I was with her until the London part. Maybe it's because I'm currently cold, but I can think of much warmer places to imagine than that.

Okay, this addendum is because I was chuckling so much earlier I forgot what else I was going to comment on here. Anyway, the intimidation factor that Lynne is talking about is exactly what I was referring to when I talked about finding that balance between being conscious of the rules and ignoring them completely.

Now, I know that most likely many of the language teachers out there are cringing reading this, but let's face it - most of us aren't language majors. Quite frankly, a lot of us are winging it whether we want to or not and we either wing it from the knowledge base we "own" currently or we choose not to attempt storytelling at all. So somewhere along the line if we choose to make the attempts, we have to almost blind ourselves to the absolute knowledge that grammatically and even structurally we're simply going to make mistakes and just dive in anyway.

Does this mean that during that same process we can't pick up new things and learn new ways as we have fun with the stories? ABSOLUTELY NOT. I'm a great believer in lifelong learning for one thing. Show me the individual who doesn't need to "learn" anything new in life and I'll take their pulse to make sure. Literally.

We simply have to balance out the sure knowledge that all of us can learn new things as we go along with the equally sure knowledge that not making the attempt if our interest leans that way is the true failure.

Back last fall I learned something new that really surprised me, so much so that it's is part of the reason why I have consciously decided to become more active in this fanfic arena again. I was doing some research and wanted to find the term that was the "writing" equivalent of literacy. I was quite honest in my search, so imagine my surprise when I found the actual definition of literate on Merriam-Webster Online: "able to read and write".

Now, I know that at its most basic that's simply about the "act" of reading and writing. On another level, however, it made me think about all the times I've run across discussions on and offline about how reading just for the sake of reading is not encouraged like it should be. Very true. But, using the above definition of literate and the same logic, if people become better readers the more they read, should not the same be said of writing?

And yet how many people are like I was and don't even realize writing is part of the same literacy package because people don't discuss writing for the sake of writing?

Amen, CC! I haven't taken any classes about writing fiction ever, and I don't have clubs, lists, or teachers to help me. I don't even read all that much.

I pretty much write whatever my brain tells my fingers to type -- it's pretty stream of consciousness -- and that tends to be my writing style.

So what if I don't follow the bible of writing? So what if I don't even know half of the "rules"? So what if I had to ask on IRC yesterday what was actually meant between "telling and showing"?

I am not trying to become a professional writer. There's no way I could ever even dream of doing it. I know there are people who do aspire to write professionally and people who have been published. But it's discussions like this that remind me that my writing is horribly sub par.

Some of us just write what we want to write -- and what we want to read ourselves -- without regard for any rule. I guess I don't take my writing seriously enough or something. Oh well. I really don't care.

Oh well, guess I should stop writing then.

- Laura
(who's in the midst of writing a paper to be published . . . um in Annals of BME . . . doesn't count, huh?)

I'm not trying to lead a rebellion, to overthrow the Fiction Rule Gods, or anything else, for that matter.

I do want to learn to tell a story effectively. I have years of experience writing in other areas, but this is a different animal.

I've found that just writing, pure and simple, on a regular basis has been a great teacher. As well as posting stories here, and seeing them reflected back to me. This lets me know how I'm communicating, if I'm coming across the way I intend to.

So, with the knowledge that I'm not a rabble-rouser firmly in place, and my acknowledgment that there is value in learning the rules, and as Jude said, knowing enough to know what rules to break, here's this (at last): Do we risk our distinctive voices when we adhere to someone else's idea of what good story telling is?

I'm not starting a debate.
I'm just really curious.

CC

According to one article I've read, it's more likely you will lose your distinctive voice when you work with a critique group where your work is re-worked by many different writers until it begins to resemble a work by committee. This article also stated that basic instinct is a writer's best tool, though basic instinct alone won't carry you to publication unless you do hone your skills and learn about craft. I think several folks have said it here -- there's a balance. But there does have to be a certain level of professionalism in your writing for an editor to consider it. Of course, the majority of writers here aren't working toward publication; they write for fun. But even when you play football or tennis for fun you still follow the rules.

One thing that has not been mentioned yet is the obvious thought that if you're not interested in improving your craft (and there's certainly nothing wrong with that) then why bother to read these threads? Just don't open them, or if you do and realize it's something that doesn't interest you, click "Back" and go on to something else.

At the risk of debating with CC - whom I've learned it's a good policy never to debate with because she will whip out the old Philosophy Major trump card and soundly whip me with it every time - I don't think that writers risk losing their voice by trying to follow some general guidelines.

If you think about it (and CC, this actually does just kind of maybe get a little philosophical), we are all limited with the basic building blocks of the English language - there are only so many ways to construct a sentence and so many words to use (albeit gazillions of words). Yet still year after year people pour out staggering amounts of excellent writing. Two authors can take the same subject and same set of words and create completely different works just based on order and usage. I think this is where "style" or "voice" comes from more so that a disregard for some guidelines. Kind of like e.e. cummings not using capital letters or punctuation. Yes - I know his stuff. But it kind of annoys me to read it.

Strunk and White do a great job of illustrating this with the phrase by Thomas Paine: "These are the times that try men's souls." Very strong and well known phrase. Try simply reordering the words, as another author may have chosen to do: "Times like these try men's souls," or "These are trying times for men's souls." Same words. Same general meaning. All three sentences grammatically accurate and well turned. But neither of the last two examples have even close to the same style and voice as the original.

That being said, I also agree that the rules we've been throwing around in here - or actually, guidelines - are simply things we might all want to employ in moderation to fine-tune our writing. Keep it from getting sloppy.

To a certain degree, I agree with Laura in that since in fanficdom we are not writing with the intention of getting published, we can ignore a lot of what writing teachers and publishers and editors throw around as guidelines and follow our own hearts and ways. At least to the degree that we write a story that people want to read. If some of the basic guidelines aren't followed, I know that personally, I would not enjoy the story. If I'm constantly noting that "he said" "she said" appears at the end of every dialogue passage, I would become so distracted by this that I would no longer be "hearing" what the author was trying to tell me. Kind of like trying to watch a television program with a little kid jumping in front of the screen shouting "Look at me! Look at me!"

I once asked my good friend, Wendy, if she judged a story to be good based on the story itself or on the technical merits of the writer. She said - and Wendy, correct me if I've misinterpreted you - that she looks at "story" but that if the technical aspects were atrocious, she found it hard to even focus on the story. I very much agree with her on that.

Sometimes, though, I admit to starting a story that seems like it has a good premise but becoming too distracted by an amateurish affectation that I can't manage to get over. And I apply a different standard to fanfic than I do to published work - expecting a lot more from those who get paid to entertain me for a living <g>.

Writing is a craft, and like all crafts, improves with practice. So in just our simple exercise of sharing these ideas and continuing to write fanfic, we are all getting better every day regardless of what "rules" we choose to use or not.

Lynn

As an English major and having spent many, many years steeped in great works of literature (Didn't I just break a rule?), I find that I adhere to the osmosis school of literacy. Or is it the Supreme Court rule of pornography? Oh, well, I know it when I see it. I recognize when it's good and, lord help me, I recognize when it's bad, bad bad. That's why I spend so much time re-writing my own stuff - trying to get rid of the bad, bad, bad. I trust my instincts because they come from a base of reading a lot of good writing, not what I have judged to be good writing, but what the ages have judged so. It's not a very analytical or scientific way to make a decision, and it doesn't really answer your question, CC, but what is universally considered good writing, whether by teachers or critics or history, is what I prefer to use as a guideline.I leave it to others to analyze and set up rules which can be useful in reshaping what I've written. I've read your writing, CC, and you seem to have good instincts. The 'rules' can help you revise and reshape what needs to be improved.

Good writing is the communication of thoughts and ideas, not just in the whole of a piece, but starting with each sentence. A sentence that is not put together well, so that it communicates clearly, cannot lead to clear communication in paragraphs and total works. When we write, we have to know what we want to say in every sentence and every paragraph, as well as the entire piece and how all those sentences and paragraphs will contribute to the overall statement. We have to say it so that those who read it, get it. If we're writing fiction, we also have to give it movement and pacing, and we have to vary the sentence structure to entice the reader to keep reading. It ain't easy. (See, I broke another rule.) It would be as wrong to adhere to a rule that says if you must do this, only do it once a page, as it would be to follow a rule that says: you must use 1 simple sentence, 1 complex sentence, 1 compounnd sentence and 1 compound- complex sentence in every 10 lines. I knew a teacher once who used something similar to that to teach high school students how to write. He was very succesful in improving their writing skills, but he did not arbitrarily dictate, as I just did, the frequency of use.

Finally, I'll say that I own the book that Schoolmarm has been quoting and refer to it often, but it is only one of many sources that I consult including my Beta reader, Geri, with whom I have a running argument over certain punctuation rules. They help me recognize my mistakes and, I hope, improve my writing, but they are tools and guidelines, not the ten commandments.

Jude

I mentioned on IRC the other day that there's a difference between less than perfect grammar, and bad grammar. Less than perfect is something like we'd use in normal dialogue. The grammar rules are usually more of a guideline than a hard and fast rule. It can be bent a little, in the right circumstances. Bad grammar, as mentioned by Lynn and Wendy, has the effect of throwing the reader off completely. Most readers will either be confused, or (as sometimes in my case) start shouting corrections as they read. This type of bad grammar makes the story unreadable.

However, grammar can be bent into knots when it comes to dialogue. After all, those particular instances may be dialect or a reflection of that character's upbringing, intellect, or age. After all, a two-year-old isn't going to be saying perfect sentences with perfect grammar.

As far as the introspection debate goes, if it's done right, then I'm all for it. Granted, I don't want pages of introspection with no action, but if mixed properly, it's a good combination.

A lot has happened here since I last posted and I'd like to address a few areas (if I can remember everything I've been thinking of).

I taught high school creative writing. (I'm not sure that's a credential or not, but I learned an awful lot preparing myself for my classes.) When I returned my students first piece of writing with their grammatical errors highlighted in yellow, I said the following: We all have our own style of writing, and the genre in which we write demands certain style expectations. Learn to write different ways for different genres.

We also tend to make our own specific kinds of grammatical and structural errors. Learn where your specific errors are so that in the future you can avoid them. (I used the example in my last post of overusing the conjunction "and"). (That means, CC, Lynn and others, that you don't have to know all the rules and the "dos and don'ts", you just have to know where you need to work on your own writing to make it even better.)

So this addresses some of the concerns that I've read on this thread.

Knowledge is a wonderful tool. The more we know and understand, the better writers we become. We don't have to be professionals, we just have to enjoy the craft. (I love it when I bake a souflee that doesn't fall down. I'm proud of it and I try to improve on it. That doesn't mean I want to be a chef.)

Don't let the so-called rules turn you off from writing. A lot of them don't apply to "you" because you've internalized the concept. Find the ones that do apply to you and work on them. (I think I'm repeating myself, but it's worth it.)

Language changes and rules of writing fiction change with time (and the expectation of the readers). Sentence fragments are more acceptable in fiction today than it was 100 years ago. The important thing is that the "error" shouldn't take away from the reader's understanding of the passage.

(For example, we start a new speaker in a new paragraph. If not, the reader gets confused seeing the change of a speaker in a paragraph. That's a convention of writing that we accept. If it's not there we (the readers) are confused. Just as we accept an amber light at an intersection as a warning to prepare to stop, we accept certain conventions in writing.

We're very lucky to have beta-readers. I hope that many of these people help us become better writers. I know mine have. (I know it's not beta-reader appreciation day but I don't care. That's you ML, Jude and CCMalo I'm talking about.) These women have shown me areas of weakness both grammatically and structurally that I've learned from and hopefully helped me become a better writer. (When I read my first fanfics I cringe in embarrassment. ) I hope that I will continue learning and that as I do I will become a better writer, even if my writing goes no further than these boards.

And that's the importance of discussions like this, that we become aware of what is written about the writer's craft so that we can learn from it (and use everything in moderation.)

And remember what George Orwell said about writing: "Break any of ...rules sooner than say anything outright barbarous."

gerry

Ok- again, not debating! But I minored in philosophy, Lynn, not majored...

And I do see the value of following essential guidelines for clean writing, I'm not advocating we do away with punctuation...not yet, that's for later.<g>

I couldn't resist this: I have a gig as the local playwright for our small town. Two plays a year I get to do with as I like. Two plays a year I'm 'assigned' my topic and it is suggested to me rather meaningfully who I cast and etc...

I write those plays- this is fresh in my head as just had one a few weeks ago- and then turn them in. The Reading Committee frowns over them, and then makes the appropriate "suggestions." By that I mean, they tell me what stays and what goes.

Long story short, those plays never sound like me. Ever. But I had a old friend come to the one that was mine, hadn't seen him in ages, he said when the first actor opened her mouth he "heard me."

I guess the tricky part is the balance- the creative spark that takes you places, and the guidelines that keep you readable...

Don't really know. This is all good stuff.
I'm thinking on it,

CC

Reading the last several comments have made me realise how out of my league I am here. L & C fanfic is the only stuff I've written (outside of work reqired reports) Nor do I have a background in things literary. (other than having kept my high school grammar text, which probably doesn't count <g>) So much to learn - which is very good, as Beverly said.

Having confessed that, you wonder why I'm posting then?

Well, first, the desire to express my appreciation for this thread. And second - a brief excerpt from an interview, which I just heard, with Elmore Leonard, on the radio. His new novel, Mr Paradise, has apparently been well recieved by the critics . He's one of the few 'thriller" (pulp fiction <g>) writers whom these guys take seriously.

Here's Leonard's comment which made me think of this thread. "Don't write what you don't need" in your story.

Of course, define, 'need' ( & note the double negative )

c.

OK - following Ms Aiken's advice about "ruthless editing" and Mr Leonard's about writing, I've edited my previous post but decided to leave both as a comparison.
----

So much to learn - which is very good, as Beverly said.

Thanks, everyone, for this thread!

Excerpt from a radio interview with Elmore Leonard, author of the recently published Mr Paradise:
"Don't write what you don't need" in your story.
-----
c.

I just want to say that, regardless of my previous comments, I really do appreciate this type of thread as well. (I just wish I still didn't have so much to learn )

I've already gone back through my current story and am making changes based on some of the suggestions here. So thanks all, for your ideas.
(And keep them coming)

ML

I love these discussions and thought I'd take a second to jump in.

On another writers' list that I'm on, they've been harping on how you should always use "said," how it's the only acceptable way, blah, blah, blah... (can you tell I'm not in complete agreement? ) but like others here have mentioned, I think eliminating "groaned" and "whispered," etc. entirely could potentially lose a writer's voice, not to mention reading as boring copy.

I have, however, learned a fun alternative, and the more I use it, the more I find myself loving it! Here's what I do. Sure, use "said" more often than the "groaned," or "whispered" to appease those who are adamant about those things. But I still throw in those more fun descreptive words, AND something fun like this (using previous example):

Lois rummaged frantically through the papers on her desk. "Clark, I can't find the Wilson file."

Clark's brow furrowed in concentration. "Gee, Lois, I can't remember where you put it either."

"Well, I need it to finish this story!" Lois finally stopped rummaging and threw her hands in the air.


There. I avoided the "said" (I'll use it sparingly later in the story ), but I also think the description not only tells the reader who's talking, but gives a great mental image of what's going on *while* they're talking. That may not be everyone's cup of tea, I understand, but as a reader, I love that. Imagery is my very favorite thing in a book. (Okay, as long as it's not used to *death* )

Anyway, that's my .02 on the subject.

I'd have to agree. Yeah, you can go too far with the synonyms. I've seen it overdone, and the story looked a bit silly. But IMHO, a little variety doesn't hurt. I think eliminating it all together in a section of dialogue doesn't hurt either, as long as there's no confusion as to who's speaking.

Point of View: This is probably one of the more challenging things a lot of us struggle with as we write.

For anyone who isn't sure what POV means, it's basically showing the story through the characters' eyes. So if I write a story from Clark's POV, I relate the events as if I were Clark, only showing what he sees or knows. For example, if Clark sees Lois shuffle through a stack of papers as she looks for the post-it note on which she jotted an important phone number, I could have something like this:


We see this scene as Clark sees it.

Switching POV within a scene is considered a bad idea by most editors, in part because it gets confusing for the reader. Now let's rewrite that bit, but shift POV within the scene.


Hopefully, you can see that the scene has lost some clarity by adding in Lois's perception of the conversation.

Now, how to know when to shift POV and how to do it. I'm no expert, but basically, from what I've read, you shouldn't shift POV unless you end the scene and begin a new one. To do that, just end the scene, insert a line space, and begin the new scene from the POV of the character whose POV you want to use. The book suggests establishing the POV in the first paragraph of the scene in order to orient the reader. You decide to shift POV when you want to show the story from a different character's perspective.

Point of view can help develop the characters as you show what's going on in their minds. It can also help you with your plot. If you write from the POV of a character who has no idea what's going on, it's going to create a different experience for the reader than if you write from the POV of a character who does know what's happening.

The book asks some questions to check yourself on POV:


Schoolmarm

Ooh, this is something I actually know a little bit about When I first started writing fanfic, I used an omniscient POV -- I'd shift from one character's head to another every paragraph. But discussions like these enlightened me and now I stick with one POV per scene. I tend to get into a rhythm, a scene from Lois's POV, then one from Clark's, then back. I *always* notice POV these days, it's just one of the things I'm sensitive to.

When a scene's not working for me, one of the first things I ask myself about is POV -- am I trying to write this scene from the wrong side? I can't say how many times I've switched heads, and had the scene start to flow.

I can't verbalize how I choose a POV; it's just got to feel right. But one of the things I think about is, who has information that won't be in dialog? Is there anything I want the reader to know -- or is there something I want to conceal, or have misunderstood?

It's fun

PJ

To add to what Pam said about deciding about whose POV to use in a scene, I'd always gone with the maxim of using whoever has the most at stake in a scene to choose the POV. If Clark and Lois are out on a date and the restaurant catches on fire and Clark has to pull a Superman to rescue everyone, chances are Clark has the most at stake - the possibility of a big reveal - so it makes sense to use his POV. If Clark and Lois are out on a date and Lois spots her old boyfriend, the one that knows that she once got drunk and danced topless on a bar and Lois is afraid that this guy will tell Clark, it makes sense to show the scene from Lois's POV.

As for changing POV from scene to scene, that is exactly what I do. However, the other maxim that I've always followed is that the only time it is OK to change POV from person to person within a single scene is during a love scene. Because you want to be able to show how each person is feeling and reacting to the other, it is OK to go back and forth between POVs as long as they are in different paragraphs and you make it clear who is feeling what and avoid roaming body parts. Kind of an action/reaction thing - Clark loved the feeling of Lois's soft lips against his own. Next paragraph: Lois couldn't believe how bold Clark was being, but she liked it.

This discussion just gets more and more informative!

Lynn

Can I skip back to Erin's comments. I've been trying to use the same technique too. It "shows" the story more than the previous way, which "tells" it.

POV. Oh boy! The bane of my existence (after commas, of course).

When I first started writing I had no idea what POV even meant, something that is all too evident in my first story. So now I'm *very* aware of it.

To add a bit of variety, another way of getting at both the main characters' thoughts in the same scene is to write the scene from a third person's POV . I'm thinking of Anna B's "What a Fish Knows" which got quite a lot across about what was going on in Lois and Clark's minds. In more serious stories, a secondary character like Martha or Perry could be used in a scene. Or .... a whole L & C story from Henderson's POV! <g>

c.