Lois & Clark Forums Forums Fan Fiction Fanfic Related Improving one's writing

Thanks, Supermom - I had a funny feeling we'd discussed dialogue tags before, but I wasn't sure. Any thoughts on the other subjects I suggested, or any other writing craft topic, for that matter?

Yvonne

Yvonne said: In my original post I said that if there was interest, I'd post more tips/comments, whatever one wants to call them. Now, I will preface what I post by saying that the things that caught my eye are the things that either I think I see too much of in fanfic or the things that I realized I do too much myself. This next section hit home, hard. I recognized everything I ever wrote in it (with the exception of a couple of very short vignettes I wrote in first person in another fandom {and yes, I know I'm the queen of not liking first person in general, so what can I say? It just seemed to fit what I was trying to accomplish).

The chapter is entitled "Sophistication" and discusses stylistic tricks that help a writer have a more sophisticated style. On page 156, I read words that made me shudder. Check them out:
They suggest that it would be better to write: "She pulled off her gloves and turned to face him."

The authors go on to point out that sometimes when we use those structures, we create physical impossibilities for our characters (somewhat like the complaint the UK people have with using verbs like laughed, sighed, breathed, etc. to indicate speech). Browne and King go on to say that they are not saying we should avoid these constructions completely, but that we should limit their use so that when we do use them, they are more effective. "But do avoid the hack's favorite constructions unless you have a good reason for using them." (p. 157) They go on to say that if you only have one incidence of these constructions per page, you're in good shape.

Schoolmarm

Now that is interesting, Schoolmarm - I do tend to use that type of phrasing from time to time, but have no idea how frequent it is. I like the suggestion that it's not too bad if used only once on a page; I'll have to keep a look out for that one.

I suppose it's like just about any stylistic device: they're fine unless they're over-used, and when they're over-used they tend to leap out at the reader and distract from the story.


Wendy

Rats! That's another thing I do when I write. There is no hope.

ccmalo

One thing that the authors suggest is to print out a chapter and then go through it with a highlighter, marking the as and -ing clauses/phrases. If the page is essentially still black and white when you're finished, you're in good shape. If it's not, then you can go back and edit it. No big deal. And CC, you might be surprised if you do that. I know I used to do it a lot. But I tried the highlighter approach on the most recent chapter I wrote and only marked about three instances in the whole chapter. So apparently, I've been getting away from it anyway.

Schoolmarm

Yup, I winced when I saw those examples, but then I scanned the story I'm writing at the moment and couldn't spot a single instance. Phew.

I have made use of this construction:
or

But I don't think that's quite the same thing, is it?

Oh, and by the way, can anyone suggest other methods to convey the fact that someone spoke quietly? I'm sick and tired of 'murmured' and 'spoke quietly' etc!

Yvonne

Too late for the introspection debate?
Shoot. Had my gloves on, ready to come out boxing...

I want and need to learn the writer's craft. I guess so I can know what's out there, what sins I am currently commiting, and what the possibilites that I haven't even imagined are.

That said, I'm often afraid to look too closely at the 'do and don't's, afraid they might freeze the muse, does that make sense?

Also, I'm with you, Yvonne. When it comes to characters speaking quietly, I don't so much "murmur" (will need to use this one) as "mutter" and "in a low voice" is big with me, too. Too much so!

Interesting thread.

CC

Yvonne said: The authors of the book suggest using the word "said" almost exclusively to attribute speech. They put forth the idea that the dialogue itself, along with description of what the characters are doing while they talk, should allow the reader to figure out that the character was angry, or whispering, or whatever most of the time.

Schoolmarm

Okay, I have a really big problem with this suggestion. Having run across books where "said" is actually used like that, I know for a fact that after a while it begins to grate as I'm reading it. Proper or not, it reads as stilted dialogue if overused.

Now there's a writing problem that I'd love some suggestions on but to be honest I'm not sure if this concerns introspection or some form of narrative that I don't know the term for. Are narratives of memories the same thing as introspection? Where does one begin and where do they stop?

A while back when I was attempting to sort out the scenes from SANCTUARY into the NEBS outline (this was before I started calling it HAVEN), there were several narrative passages of memory where Lois was thinking about things that had already happened, sort of flashbacks but not, that I marked as possibly needing to be expanded into actual scenes. Only I'm not sure if they really need to be to tell the truth. I mean realistically there is only so much one can put into each story. So how does one decide?

CeeCee wrote:
<That said, I'm often afraid to look too closely at the 'do and don't's, afraid they might freeze the muse, does that make sense?>

Sort of.
But maybe these 'do's and 'don'ts' are meant to drive the writer crazy after that first muse inpired draft is completd. It's at that point that the muse then goes out for a stroll, leaving the poor writer behind to clean up the mess.

I'll add 'said softly' to the mea culpa list, btw.

CCMalo

I look at it more as a balancing act somewhere between being conscious rules exist and ignoring them completely.

No, really. Worrying about the rules too much CAN stifle the muse, especially during the rough draft phase, but there are also times, particularly during editing, when rules can also free the muse because they do help us communicate more precisely what we're trying to say. This is all about being able to communicate the story we're trying to tell in the best manner possible, isn't it?

So it comes back to a balancing act between letting worry about possible rules one might not already know stop the process and acknowledging that once one has the story down in words there might be better ways to say certain things in it. That's where a great editor comes in handy.

I've hesitated coming into this discussion before today because in the beginning it didn't feel like writers/readers talking about writing. Now it does.

So, here are my two cents on several topics discussed.

1. In using a participle phrase or a subordinate clause to begin a sentence seems to be a way for the writer to avoid having a lot of "ands" in her writing. I know that I used to string a lot of clauses and phrases together before my beta-reader ( I think it was Jude in this case) pointed it out to me. Now I use more of those nasty phrases and clauses. I think that they work if the writer understands how the particular phrase/clause is working and whether it is supposed to be less important than the main clause. If "pulling off her gloves" is important (because the character uses it as a delaying tactic or in order to show off her expensive rings, then it should be used preceding the action.

The important thing is to be aware of what we're writing and aware of what is implied by the constructions we use. During the editing process we need to make sure that we don't use the same construction over and over again, and that we don't use the same phrases over and over again.

2. Beverly wrote: I believe (please not that everything I write here is what I believe and my opinion and not the only way anything should be done ) that, like everything in life(except for chocolate), moderation is the key. Dialogue tags is an interesting example. If the tags are too flowery or every tag has another adverb ("said haughtily", "remarked with venom", "whispered quietly--another can of worms here ) then it takes away from the actual dialogue.

I'm a firm believer that a good writer can let the reader know how a character is saying something by the situation the writer has created and the words the character speaks.

Also, the conventions of dialogue writing makes it possible to have two people speaking without indicating who is who after the initial tags. So, a writer only needs to write good dialogue.


3. And again from Beverly:
I believe that narratives of memory show what has happened in the past. I think that they should be handled in the same way that the character "shows" any kind of narrative using the same story-telling techniques.

The difficult part there is when the memory is something that has occurred in another story or in the series. It's basically filling in information that the reader should have, but may not for one reason or another. (Sometimes it's like a "previously on the Lois and Clark:"..) That's more difficult because the writer doesn't want to rewrite the story, just give a flavour of what is going on.

In one of the previous posts, someone mentioned a confidante as a way of allowing the character to share information and introspection. Not a bad idea, at all.

(Writing is a craft. We work at it, polish it, make it say what we want. There is no one way, no right way except that in the end, it needs to work. )

gerry

Thanks for your thoughtful commentary, Gerry. I've been trying to work up something about 'subservient' action but you've said it very well. Not all actions are equal, but description of what's going on helps bring the reader more into the moment and creates an urgency in the writing. Verbs, in whatever form, and modifiers (adverbs, adjectives) need to move the story along. If they slow it down, then they should be dumped. At least that's how I see it.

Jude

I, personally, use participles and subordinate (is this the word?) sentences too much. I have had three people pointing this out to me lately.

1. Editing a composition I wrote for school (in Greek) a few months ago, my teacher suggested that I should avoid using participles too much because they weaken the writing, and that I should cut my periods into smaller sentences.

2. My Spanish teacher has given me a 'tip' for writing in a foreign languages: "Write small sentences. You're less likely to committ grammar mistakes if you avoid conjunctions, participles and all these tricky thingies

3. The exact same was what I was told by my French teacher.

In Greek I've learned to follow it. But in the other languages... I just can't <shrug> I don't know why.


On the 'he smiled/sighed/laughed/etc. topic:

I think that using these words is better than using 'said' all the time. Personally, it annoys me to see the same word repeated several times, for whatever reason. I prefer using a varied vocabulary.

AnnaBtG.

-- this is me with my hand up.

Just when I start to think that maybe, just maybe, I'm learning how to write the English language, suddenly there are a whole bunch of new rules. I have just three words: IT'S NOT FAIR! (or is that four words )

My head is spinning. As a result, while reading all these rules, I found that I constantly had my hand up (much like Horshack in Welcome Back Carter) wanting clarification.

ML (who thinks there should be a rule saying no more new rules . But knows that as long as there are rules, she probably needs to know them )

ML, it's better to know the rules so when you break them it's for a reason instead of out of ignorance.

This is all just fascinating, and I have to say that like CC, I'm also finding it a bit paralyzing.

One thing - about the "is recounting a memory introspection?" I would be on the "no" side of that vote. I think that stories need to have a good balance of narrative as well as action - sometimes in order to maintain the pace of a story, it is simply better to "tell" instead of "show", and I would think that very much implies to memories recounted unless the memory is so impactful it warrants a scene. Just MHO, of course.

I had a writing teacher also give me the "highlighter" editing technique, wherein you use different color highlighters to mark up your manuscript to find problematic passages. For example, a yellow highlighter to mark up all adverbs (don't want too many there), a pink highlighter for all said-bookisms, etc. This is both a good thing and a bad thing for me - good in that a lot of times I think I've overused something come to find out I haven't, but also bad because I get somewhat paranoid as I write.

Which brings me to three questions/issues that this same writing teacher passed along as big no-nos in writing that I seem to have problems with.

One is the overuse of adverbs. Somehow I just can't let go of the "-ly is my friend" philosophy. Now, while I'm quite proficient in changing things like "walked slowly" into "strolled" and "smiled cheerfully" into "grinned", I just can't manage to give up these little crutches. I haven't figured out how to condense "kissed passionately" or "gripped painfully". Is there a list of these somewhere <g>?

The other bit of advice that I've been trying to employ is to wean myself of the dreaded "It was". This teacher's hard and fast rule (which I know all rules are meant to be broken, bent, and battered to within an inch of their lives) was to NEVER start a sentence with "It was." It is far too passive of a sentence structure and is a definite example of telling, not showing. She swore up and down that there is always another way to write the sentence without using it. Sometimes, I just can't find that way.

And finally, the dreaded "that". I think I must use if far more than I'm supposed to because according to my Teacher (note the capital T), the word "that" should be ruthlessly searched-and-deleted throughout the story.

So any thoughts on these three big taboos? I know, I know, everything in moderation. Although when it comes to "said" I have to actively force myself to go through my story and replace said-bookisms with "said". I love whispereds and groaneds and retorteds. I guess I must just be a really lazy writer.

Lynn

You see, this is exactly what I meant by not really wanting to know the do's and dont's!

Yikes.

I'm making all of my stuff up. There, I said it. I have no classes, no club, no list, no teacher to give me the low down on what is done and what is frowned on.

I read a lot. And then I just...throw stuff at the screen. Anybody else?

I can get behind the idea that you write freely, then go back and edit ruthlessly...but man! Now that I've seen your list, Lynn, and the other things pointed out on this thread, I'm afraid to go back and look at my stories. Might have to lay down, take two aspirin, imagine I'm in London...

Who makes these rules? Let's get to the bottom of this, find out who Oz is....And, I'd be interested to know, who ignores them entirely?

Ok, I vented a little. It's a bit disconcerting to realize how little I know about something I really love.

Back to our thread in progress- going to find those aspirin. This, btw, is why I never get started when the gigantic 'grammar' thread shows up around here...intimidates me!

CC

Does the 'thou shalt not' re "It was" also apply to "It is"?
As in:
"It is a truth universally acknowedged that a man with superpowers must be in want of a wife."
Just noticed the evil "that" as well.

c. (with apologies to Jane) <g>

Re. Lynn bemoaning 'said-bookisms', I have to say that I entirely agree with whoever it was - Beverly? - who said that the repeated use of 'said' jerks her right out of a story. It's repetitive and it gets irritating, at least for me. It suggests that the author has either a limited imagination or a limited vocabulary. Now, maybe that's me being judgemental and superior - that's entirely possible - but it grates on me.

So, Lynn, please keep up your whispering and groaning! I promise to lap up every word.

As someone else said - and I'm sorry, but it's on the first page of the thread and I forget who it was - all these rules are helpful - but in moderation. Plus, know what they are so you know when you're breaking them: nice one, Jude!


Wendy