Lois & Clark Forums Forums Fan Fiction Fanfic Related Kerth Nominating Questions

I was thinking of this the other day... in connection with the "Best Original/Supporting Character" -- that's a brand new category this year; we've never had anything close to it, really. And yet, we're overflowing with strong contenders for it. The K-Com didn't have to try to encourage people to write good supporting characters. We just identified the trend (perhaps belatedly ). So, we'll re-assess next year, and see how many stories seem to feature strong bad-guy A-plots. Get writing, people!

PJ

Just my opinion, but I'm in favor of the "follower" category. You've identified the trends in the previous year, which have sprung up spontaneously among the various writers. If the Oscar race is your model, that's what they do. They don't change categories often, but this is the first year Animation is a serious race. It's well known that creative ideas travel in packs in writing and in -belive it or not - science. Why or how this happens is not really understood, but it is well documented. Therefore, "forcing" (although you are really not) the issue seems unnecessary. Who knows, maybe the muses have a union?

Artemis

*ponders*

Ok, the thing is, I agree with this also:

OMG - Artemis! Don't give them ideas! They're uppity enough as it is!

/me slaps her hands over her Muse's eyes...oh, look...chocolate over in the corner of the room there...


LabRat

Let me begin by saying that I have no opinion about what categories we should have for the Kerth’s this year. I trust the Kerth committee to make those decisions.

But there is one thing I would like to say. Like it or not, I do think the Kerth committee is a leader in terms of what stories get written. For example, it would never have occurred to me that such a creature as a ‘series’ even existed if there hadn’t been a Kerth category for it. I would have simply thought an author wrote a story and then, afterwards, decided that they wanted to write a second story which followed from the first. However, knowing that there was such a creature, I turned my mind to trying to write one. And that’s what I did this year for Without A Superman. When I wrote the first word of Without A Superman (Clark Kent’s Quest), I knew that there were going to be three stories which were going to have completely different and distinct A plots and yet were going to have a B plot which ran throughout. To me, each story stands on it’s own and yet none of the stories should be read without the others. But I would never have written that story if the Kerth category of ‘series’ hadn’t given me the idea.

I also find myself reading the discussion every year about whether a Drama should have an A-plot and it always leaves me thinking that people in this fandom don’t particularly like A-plots. Since I’m not a good enough writer to write a story without an A-plot, I must admit that I find that the idea saddens me. It makes me less inclined to write stories because I sort of figure that my stories aren’t what people really want to read anymore.

Anyway, those are my thoughts.

Just a couple more points. Another example of how Kerth categories have affected my stories was that one year there were a large number of TOGOM re-writes. Being me, I never noticed the trend. But then the Kerth committee created a category that year specifically for those stories. It got me to thinking, wondering if I could write a TOGOM re-write that was different from all the others. The end result was The Second Stage of Grief. So once again, the Kerth committee’s decision influenced me to write a story. The fact that the category didn't exist in the coming year was irrelevant. The fact that the category had existed at one time was what caused me to think of a new idea for a story.

This year, with the Kerth committee creating a new category for creation of a new character, I find myself wondering if I could... Ah, but that’s a different story .

I have to say that I agree with a lot of what MLT says.

Well, MLT, I have to say that reading your post makes me want to read your stories. I do like A plots, and I appreciate them when I find them.

Your doubts here echo the ones I had when I wrote Extraordinary Man II. Most of the feedback I got was very complimentary about the relationship parts of the story, but few people had anything to say about the A plot. It almost made me wonder why I'd bothered with it!

Oh, and please don't say you are not a good enough writer to write a story without an A plot! I'm sure others would say that they are not good enough writers to write stories with an A plot. It's all a matter of where an author's strengths and preferences lie. Neither one is better or worse than the other; it's simply a reflection of people liking different things and having talents in different areas.

So, please, rest assured, you're not crying in the wilderness here. Or, if you are, we're singing quite the duet!

As for whether the Kerths are leaders or followers in influencing what people write, I have to say that I think they are both and, if anything, there is a kind of circular pattern.

When categories like Best Villain get dropped I think that, yes, this reflects the kinds of stories that have been written in the previous year. But it also -- I think -- sends signals that these kinds of stories aren't being written and are unpopular... and that may influence what people continue to write.

This is one reason why I'm so delighted to see the new Best Original / Supporting Character category this year. It shows that writers were writing stories outside the boundaries of the 2003 Kerth Categories, and I think that speaks volumes for the powers of creativity at work within this community.

I, myself, have often wondered about trying to write for the FoLC 'market'; I see a hunger for and appreciation of long and (often) angsty relationship fics, or pure, unadulterated waffyness (is that a word?). But I don't find it in me to write long relationship stories, be they waffy or angsty. In the end, I write what I feel like writing... and either people like it or they don't (although I hope they will).

Chris (one of FoLCdom's eternal runners-up )

I personally love a good strong A-plot. When mixed well with a B-plot, you have something similar (or exactly) a "lost episode". It's great seeing something similar to what you'd see in one episode, especially if it's longer than what you could fit into 45-ish minutes. So please, don't stop writing them!

I think the influence is a circle of sorts. The writers influence the Kerths, which influence the writers. The Kerths show off trends that may not otherwise be noticable, and provide ideas.

This is so interesting to read, because it shows me that writers come at a story from really different angles.

When I have an idea in my head, I never really think much about whether or not anyone will want to read it or if it fits into what might be "popular" at the moment. Usually, a story that I write is a story that I'd like to read, so my stories reflect *my* personal tastes.

Since A-plots for me (and I'm very much speaking only for myself!) are enjoyable to read only in as much as they involve the LnC relationship, I tend not to write intricate A-plots that are not simply tools to further the B-plot. Kind of like watching an LnC episode - I always skipped over the A-plot stuff unless it showed LnC in some stage of their relationship. For example, in Lucky Leon when Lois and Clark on on stakeout. This is part of the A-plot, but I love to watch it because what it reveals about LnC's advancing relationship. When morning comes and the story switches focus back to the bad guys, I hit the fast-forward button.

But I do know that there are many, many readers out there who love A-plots. Just like there are those who love mysteries or true-crime dramas or espionage stories, etc. Variety is the spice of life.

I guess I'm saying that I would hope writers don't walk away from a story idea they are excited about simply because they think there is no readership for it. Doing that kind of creates a circular situation. People who like to read A-plot stuff will leave when there are no offerings, leading to a group of readers and writers leaning toward B-plot heavy stories, which in turn makes it look as if no one wants to read A-plot stuff anymore.

Lynn

MLT and Chris - I think you're wrong that the readers don't appreciate a good A-plot. That's why, imho, we have (and should continue to have) a Kerth category specifically for A-plot stories.

It's unfortunate that its name, "Best Drama", always makes people hem and haw and say "But the English word 'drama' doesn't specifically mean an A-plot." I don't think there *is* an English word that specifically means an A-plot. There was a debate one year about whether the term "Best Comedy" really meant the same as best funny story, or whether the name should be changed to something else (I forget what). I think it's simpler if people just go by the category descriptions and aren't too picky about the precise names...

(What, me - picky? Never! What could possibly give anyone that impression?!? )

Mere

I'll agree with ML that writers aren't completely unaware of what other trends are going on, when deciding what to write. And awards can be a nice little incentive, or get someone thinking "hey, what if?". So there's definitely that aspect to it.

As an example: I wrote "My Interview with Superman" because (originally) I wanted to create something to submit to the Merriweathers. That got me started thinking about writing something, and influenced my writing style. Also, there have been several alt-Clark stories recently (the ones by Nan & Krissie spring to mind, but there are others), and it got me to wondering if I could find any new way to approach the idea. No H.G.Wells, no immediate hostility to overcome... and I had an image in my head of alt-Lois watching alt-Clark from the crowd, analyzing him before approaching him. Err, I've wandered from the topic

Anyway, yes, there is some "leadership" effect to the Kerths, but we've chosen to downplay it rather than try to exploit it to select preferred types of stories. What a can of worms that would be... we don't wanna go there.

PJ

So, Mere, your assertion is that if a story does not contain an A-plot, it cannot be considered a drama, regardless of the tone of the story or seriousness of the theme?

I wasn't around for any previous debates on that topic, so I'm somewhat confused by this definition of the word "drama" which requires an A-plot.

Lynn

Very interesting discussion! Personally, other than one Valentine's story and one challenge fic, I've never tried writing a story aimed at a particular readership or category. Taking MLT's song and changing the words slightly, I'm just not a good enough writer to be able to do that. I write what I like and if other people like it too, then I'm lucky.

Inspiration for stories, however, is a slightly different thing, IMO. It comes from a wide range of sources - not, in my case, Kerth categories, but I can see how that would work for other people. BRing as I do for Wendy, for example, I'm well aware of the popularity of TOGOM stories <g> and once tried to write my own - on the basis that if other writers were having fun with this scenario, then perhaps I could, too. I stress writers rather than readers - my motivation to give it a try was to join in the fun other writers were having, not to write a story which would be popular. Anyway, I failed dismally. <g>

Mere, it seems to me that if we want a category which rewards strong A plots, then we should call the category "Best 'A' Plot" <bg>.

MLT, it's not that we don't like A plots. It's just that a lot of us feel very ill-equipped to write them, and we're actually very jealous of people like you and Jenni Debbage who can craft a complex and convincing 'villain' plot. Also, often the story we choose to tell just doesn't need a particularly strong A plot. Lynn's Butterfly Legacy is a good case in point - great drama, IMHO, but zero A plot. Anyway, don't you dare stop writing your kind of L&C story, because I for one enjoy them tremendously.

Yvonne

Yvonne wrote:
Ha! Tell me about it. I have this poor fic sitting on my hard drive, which is has the B-plot entirely worked out and has run into trouble for lack of an A-plot to tie it together. I second that bit about being jealous -- I am truly in awe of writers who can craft a good A-plot. (Speaking of which, does anyone know what has become of Shayne Terry?)

In fact, the stories that make me really sit up and take notice are the ones with a good balance of A-plot and B-plot, such as Yvonne's "Damaged" (which is heavy on the B-plot, certainly, but still has a wonderful A-plot so our favourite characters have a problem to solve together), Wendy's "When Larry Met Charlie", and Nan's "Four Days to Nightfall" -- just for example.

Now, since we evil fanfic writers just lurve to pour on the angst, how about a category for "Best Kryptonite Story"?

JM

Actually, I guess for me there are two different forces at work here. I write because I get an idea (from a variety of sourses, the Kerth's being only one of them) and I have to find out how the story is going to end. So I write.

But I write a lot of stories which have never, and will never be posted. A couple of those stories have even gone to my Beta readers before I decided not to post. A lot more have never even been sent to my Beta readers.

I have to do a lot of extra work after a story is written to make it suitable for others. I spend hundreds of hours on editing a story before I even send it to my Beta readers. And I usually don't bother doing that if I'm not sure that people will want to read it.

I'm only commenting on it because if I find myself reluctant to post, then others probably do as well. And I'd hate to have people not posting because they think that people only want relationship driven stories.

Perhaps the way to deal with it is by having Best Drama - A Plot Driven and Best Drama - Relationship Driven. And then get rid of the Relationship category all together. Just an idea.

Jumping in with a few random thoughts of my own, after having watched with facination as the thread developed...

Drama, I think, used to be the A-plot category. There used to be "Best Villain" and, I think, something like "Best Action." Those, along with "Best Lost Episode," were dropped, and, for a while, Drama was the place that caught all the stories that would have gone to the old categories. "Best Relationship" was for B-plot stories and "Best Drama" was sort of opposite it, for A-plots. I don't think that's really the case anymore, though. As others have said, a story can be a drama with or without an A-plot.

As for leading or lagging... On reflection, actually, I realize that I can only speak for myself. I write whatever comes to mind, regardless of how popular I think it'll be or what categories it might or might not fit, and I send it in when it's ready (or when the archive needs stories to flesh out the weekly upload). I have little to no control over what story I'm working on, what kind of a plot it has, how long it will be, or any of that. It's all dependant upon what ideas come to me and where those ideas take me. Sure, sometimes I respond to challenges, focusing my thoughts on the idea there and trying to see where they go, but beyond that very basic level, I simply can't write to order.

I know I'd love to be able to write a good solid A-plot, and I know that I've got a few stories mouldering away in my WIPs folder waiting for A-plots to make them work. The best A-plot I've ever written was the one that was controlled by reader input. I didn't know how to write it, so I let you guys do all the work. <g>

As for A-plots in general... I enjoy reading a good story, whether it has an A-plot or not. Let me say, ML, you write good stories. Please don't stop. (I would, however, personally prefer to read your stories on the MBs. I find myself intimidated by long stories for no reason I can really name, and am more likely to read them if they're fed to me in managable chunks. That may just be me, though...)

In any case, there's something in all this that scares me a bit. This whole idea of what types of stories are "popular" and trying to fit in with that is sending up warning signals in my head. I mean, if that's really the way that writers are going to go about things, then pretty soon we'll end up with an homogenized pool of stories. Everything will have B-plots and nothing will have A-plots and then certain types of B-plots will fade away and basically we'll have everyone writing the same story. What's the point? Where's the fun?

I do hope that there's room for more variety than that in this fandom, and that, just as importantly, all you writers out there realize it.

Oh, and Chris, there is no such thing as a "runner-up." Winning is very cool, but it's the icing on the cake. It's my understanding that, quite often, the winner is decided by a rather narrow margin. If your stories are consistently nominated, then that should tell you something.

I think there was something else that I wanted to say, but if so, I can't remember what it was. Oh well. I'll just toss this out there and see what you FoLCs make of it.

Paul

EDIT: Just saw ML's latest post (which came up while I was writing this one).

/me sees ML admitting to withholding fic, considers saying something, and then decides that it's more important to just get out the way. Very fast.

Lynn, I'm trying very hard to avoid any debate on the meaning of the English word "drama". All I'm interested in is the definition of the Kerth Drama category. I firmly believe that the two concepts are poles apart.

In respect of the Kerth category: no, I don't believe that an A-plot is absolutely necessary for the Drama category, because the definition on the Kerths page no longer says it is: However, I do also believe that it makes sense to have a Kerth category for stories which have fully-fledged A-plots and another for stories which are heavy on the B-plot side. Whether they're called "Best Drama" and "Best Relationship", "Best A-plot" and "Best B-plot", "Best Drama: A-plot Driven" and "Best Drama: Relationship Driven", or "Best Plugh" and "Best Xyzzy" is a matter of near-complete indifference to me... except that I kinda wish the annual arguments about what to call the damn things could be sorted out sometime before the heat death of the universe.

Mere (not holding her breath )

I've really got no excuse for this post, but...

Hey, that's me!

Paul

You do know that is punishable by FoLC law, right? Fic *must* be posted! Now.. now I'm going to have to sic my cat on you. Sammy, attack! No, not pets, attack! Yes, I love you too, now attack! Fine. Go sit on her wrist, or something. *goes to find another punishment*

Mere, I think we'll just have to agree to differ.

You see (and forgive me if I've understood you wrongly) Relationship and Drama as complimentary opposites, ie Relationship's strength is its B-plot, and Drama's is its A-plot. In a Venn diagram, they'd probably be overlapping circles. I, conversely, see them as two unrelated categories; one celebrates the Relationship aspect of a story, and the other celebrates the mix of humour, angst, relationship development, etc, which when put together, make a good drama. In my Venn diagram, they'd be two separate circles - or perhaps the Relationship circle would even be inside the Drama circle.

As I say, differing opinions, and I don't think we'll ever manage to agree - we both think we're right.

Yvonne

PS: ML, you have stories which haven't been posted??? You do know that was a dangerous thing to admit to, don't you? I see fans tooling up with disks and USB keys and password-breaking programs as we speak...