Lois & Clark Forums Forums Fan Fiction Fanfic Related Deathfic Debate- love 'em, loathe 'em, and everywhere in between...

I've talked so much about this that I must be boring everybody to tears by now. Hopefully, this will be my last comment in this thread.

When I was a kid, I noticed that most stories were about men, whereas a disproportionate number of deathfics were about women. Although I couldn't express it in so many words, I did feel, from a very early age, that men's lives were considered more important than women's and women's deaths were considered less important than men's.

When somebody's life - anybody's life - is used just so that I can experience a "cleansing" by imagining it being snuffed out, I don't feel cleansed, but enraged as well as depressed. I think the value of human life is being reduced and demeaned that way.

But especially, just because I feel that women's lives are generally considered cheaper and less valuable than men's, I get particularly enraged when a woman is killed either to offer us "cleansing", to allow us to wallow in death and still remain untouched by it, or to make a male character experience some interesting emotions. Rigoletto, Lot, Clark and even Black Beauty were treated as the natural and obvious protagonists of their stories, while Rigoletto's daughter, Lot's wife, Lois, Mayson and even Ginger the mare were the female sacrificial lambs, those whose lives were considered cheaper and less interesting than their male counterparts', and who could therefore be killed while their male counterparts lived on.

I'm a feminist, but I don't think I'm too extreme most of the time. But nothing, honestly, makes me more furious than seeing women's lives, their very existence, being considered less interesting and cheaper than that of males, so that they can be sacrificed just to elicit interesting reactions from the males, who are regarded as the main characters anyway. I will never, ever like a story that treats men as people and women as cannon fodder. I will always hate any Lois and Clark story where Clark is treated as the main character and Lois is a plaything or a tool which can be tweaked and bent in various directions just so that we get to watch Clark react.

Ann

I can see where you're coming from Toc, and it's a valid point.

I enjoy death fics, but that doesn't make the observation any less astute. I can definitely see why you would feel that way about death in books, shows, films, etc.

One of the reason I liked the show "Buffy the Vampire Slayer" as much as I did was because Joss saw the exact same thing in death in fiction or tv that you have just described.

In fact, the reason he created Buffy was because he was tired of seeing the typical horror movie in which "that blonde girl walks into an alley way, and is killed by the creature waiting for her." He didn't like the way horror films didn't seem to value human life (using them as cannon fodder), and he started "feeling sorry for that blonde girl". He wanted to see her "take back the night"

So in the very first scene of the first episode of Buffy "Welcome to the Hellmouth", Buffy (the blonde girl) does indeed walk into an alley way, but this time she is not only ready for him, she trounces him.

Joss never considered himself a feminist per se, but he did see the value in his characters lives, and although he killed some off it was never (and I still beleive this) pointless. Sad, yes. Pointless, no.

Lois and Clark was always rather good in that, nobody really died...but then again it kept some of the more interesting stories from being told. I would have liked to see Clark deal with the fact that he used that Kryponian move (the one where the block everything out except the desire to kill)on Nor. I mean, somehow it *didn't* kill him (the kryptonite did), but I felt that was a bit of a cop-out.

Clark's killer instinct (an inherant Kryptonian trait) *was* there. I was somewhat disappointed that they didn't deal with that on the show. Do I mean they should have had Clark actually KILL Nor? Well, maybe not given the show's rating and timeslot...but at least have Clark deal with the fact that he had it in him to kill Nor.

I would like to see a fanfiction however, in which he does. Technically that would be a death fic, but one in which another purpose is served.

Not all deathfics are Lois deathfics. (Incidentally if there is one out there with this particular plot line I'd love to know about it).

Anyway, I guess I'm just rambling.

Not trying to change anybody's view point, just mentioning one of things that always frustrated me about the series.

And I never liked that they killed Mayson. I *liked* Mayson and her death was indeed pointless. Besides, I always thought she and Dan Scardino would have made a good match

-tvnerdgirl
Anya: "Let's go assemble the cannon fodder"
Xander: "Sweetie, we're not calling them that..."
Anya: "Well not to their face!"
---

If you are looking for a violent Clark, you could try reading "The Heir: Healing" by Piper and Peace. You'll find it under "Peace" at Annesplace. It's a beautiful story, but I find it disturbing, mostly because Clark comes home from Krypton a changed man, more violent. He actually hurts Lois, not badly, but still. Well, people, this is an interesting question. Counsellors keep saying that the woman should leave her partner the first time he is violent with her. I felt bad enough about what Clark did to Lois in that story to feel he didn't really deserve another chance with her. I don't think most of you would agree, however.

And for those who want to see Clark kill, I'm sure I've read a story where Lex Luthor rapes Lois, and Clark responds by killing Lex. I'm fairly sure I read it at Annesplace, too, but I have no idea who wrote it or what it was called. Personally I really didn't like it, because I don't want to see Lois raped, and I don't want to see Clark kill. But anyone who wants to see Clark give in to his Kryptonian killer instinct should read it. Perhaps somebody out there knows which story I'm talking about?

Ann

I would like to point out that in the deathfic I wrote it was Clark who died...

See ya,
AnnaBtG.

You and me both. I *despise* all those movies that start with a happy family, then the wife and/or kids are killed (in some horrible unjust way), so the hero has something to do for the rest of the film. Hate them, hate them, hate them. One of the things I like about L&C is that Lois is rarely a helpless female waiting around for Superman to save her... she's in there kicking and fighting and not infrequently saving the day.

Which actually reminds me of a funny link... be glad you're not married to any character Harrison Ford ever played .

PJ

Anna posed an interesting question a while back about the deaths of minor characters (Mayson Drake, Dan Scardino, Jack [whose last name I cannot recall]) as opposed to the deaths of major characters (Lois, Clark, Perry, Jimmy), and I haven't seen an answer to it. Is it a deathfic if Lex dies? Or do we applaud that and write filksongs about it?

Is it okay to knock off Lana Lang? How about allowing Clark's or Lois's parents to die in the far future? Or is that a no-no, too?

What about criminals who try to trade their heads for Clark's (Spenser Spenser)? Is it okay to quick-freeze them and then shatter them like a cheap mirror?

I guess what I'm ranting about are guidelines. If there are any, I don't know what they are. I respect the preferences of those who don't want to read deathfic, but those of us who consider death to be a viable plot twist need to know how to label it when we do bump off somebody. I understand not wanting to see Lois or Clark die. I did a story last year where the alternate ending (which I did not post) saw Lois die and Lana live on. I didn't use that ending for a number of reasons, one of which was that I wanted to see Lois live on. But should that story have been labeled a deathfic? I honestly don't know.

Assuming that the character in the story is someone I like, having that character die for no good reason is extremely unsatisfying to me. It smacks of cheap opportunism and an attempt to shock the reader instead of uplift him or her. If, however, Lois were to die while preventing a nuclear war which would cost millions of lives, it would be something I could read and understand and even applaud, since she would have died to save the lives of others.

Having written that, I also understand that there are those who would not want to read that story irrespective of the nobility of the sacrifice. No problem. I have written before that not everybody likes everything, and that's perfectly okay. I am less drawn to the emotional aspects of Lois and Clark than I am to the dramatic potential. Doesn't mean I won't read the angsty relationship stories, or that I think they shouldn't be written, it just means they aren't my favorite.

It's the same reason I almost never flip over to the N-fic folder. The few things I've read there appear to be cheap attempts at soft porn, and I frankly don't care for it. So I don't read it. Doesn't mean someone else can't write it or read and appreciate it. But I'm glad it's over there, clearly labeled, so I know what I would be getting into.

From now on, if anyone dies in any of my stories, I will put a warning in the WHAM folder. I would not want anyone to feel cheated or tricked into reading something they would prefer not to. And please don't take this as petulance, because it's not. I really do appreciate the viewpoint of those who detest deathfic. I don't quite share it, but I do respect it.

You know, we never saw Asabi die in the series, either. Hmm...

I totally agree, Terry. This would have been a noble, selfless death, the kind of death that would have celebrated the life of the dead person.

This kind of deathfic may still depress me, but I'll never get infuriated by it. I'll never feel it was cheap. I'll never feel it sacrificed a character to cheap effect. I'll never feel that such a deathfic treats the dead person as if he or she was irrelevant in himself or in herself, as if that person only matters because others react to his or her death.

As for minor characters, I never like to see anyone die for no good reason. I don't want to see Lana or Mayson or even Dan Scardino die. I'd really feel upset about watching Jonathan or Martha die, or Perry. I could accept it, since they are old people, and as for Perry, we know he has "died" already. Or the actor who played him so memorably in the ABC show has died. It must be okay to write a fanfic story about Perry dying too, but I'll never like it much. (What about Jimmy dying? Frankly, I can't even imagine anyone writing such a story - well, except Tank! And, okay, I admit it - I do think Tank's death-of-Jimmy-fics are slightly funny. But I can't imagine anyone killing Jimmy for a, well, non-Tank reason. And I most decidedly wouldn't like it.)

I'll never be upset by the death of Luthor, on the other hand. Luthor is the sort of person who has done so many bad things, and who must really have so many enemies, that it can neither be surprising nor upsetting to see him die. And as for bad guys and villains in general, I'll never be upset by seeing someone die while they're trying to bring about somebody else's death.

But then, I'll never read a story just to wallow in a villain's death, either. And I'll never be sorry to see Luthor or any other villain survive. I'm never, and I mean never, here to read about anybody's death, just because I get some sort of a kick or a thrill out of it.

Ann

Not that I'd ever want anyone to read nfic if they have any kind of aversion to it, but I do feel compelled to respond to this one, Terry.

Just like any other genre, nfic covers a wide range of themes. Some are what we tend to term 'nfic romps' lightweight, mind candy, PWP, nothing but the characters indulging in a bit of sexual slap and tickle. Others are more serious-minded and integrated into a story about other themes. In some the sexual element is used as a springboad to explore other areas of the relationship between the characters.

Certainly, there are many nfic authors out there who put as much hard work into their nfic stories as any other author here and who would be deeply offended to hear their stories labelled as 'cheap attempts at soft porn'.

As with any genre - hold fast to your opinions on it, if you don't like it, don't read it, but please treat those who don't share that opinion and their work with respect.

I should probably point out, too, that the nfic folder isn't only for stories of a sexually explicit nature, but for stories which contain adult themes. Granted, the sexually explicit ones make up the greatest chunk of stories posted over there. But you will find some which contain no sex at all, or very little of it, but which are posted there because they breach the PG13 barrier in other ways.

Now returning you to your previous debate. <G>

LabRat

And returning to that debate...

...you bring up an interesting point, Terry, on who exactly merits the label deathfic. I thought I had an easy answer to it, but then I started typing and it got more complicated as I went along.

I personally wouldn't count any villain in a series. Mainly because I think part of their purpose in being there at all is to die. <g> The hero has to triumph over them. Sometimes that means they get led off to prison. Sometimes it involves a more painful exit.

Other than that, for LNC, I'd consider it a deathfic if any of the principle characters die. That would be Lois, Clark, Jimmy, Perry, Martha, Jonathan, Cat...think that's everyone. As with any such lists, I'm now convinced I've forgotten someone.

However, I think a deathfic is about more than just the characters chosen to die. I think for a story to be labelled a deathfic it has to be specifically about the character's death and how people react to it.

I've read many stories, for example, where Jonathan dies or Perry dies during the story, but it's part of a wider story and not the whole focus of it. And it's never struck me as I read that these are deathfic.

Having said that - as my mind grows ever more fuzzy on this issue where once there was clarity - if it was Lois or Clark who died - in any story - I'd probably consider it deathfic.

Does that makes sense?

Thought not.



Right. Okay. The conclusion I've reached then...

...nope. I got nothing.

LabRat (off to have breakfast and watch Judge Judy instead, which seems to be the extent of her mental limits right now )

Oh, dear.

You see, the discussion has now touched on one of my pet hates, and I just can't resist the opportunity to vent.

The pet hate in question is putting labels on things. Putting things in boxes. Categorising them. I hate it. You see, as soon as you put a label on something, it's a reason for the thing to be avoided. Excluded. And life becomes so predictable and dull, I think, if you only ever sample the things with nice, safe, pre-packaged labels.

Terry did it, quite unintentionally, I'm sure, with nfic. In the pre-packaged, short-hand world of labels, nfic equals soft porn. Terry doesn't want to read soft porn, so Terry doesn't read nfic. And thus misses out on all the nfic stories where there is very little or no sex.

We're all doing it with deathfic. Label a fic deathfic and immediately you'll repel anyone who doesn't want to read about major character death. But what if your definition of deathfic isn't the same as the next person's? Labrat is struggling like crazy just to voice her own thoughts on the subject, let alone put together a definition to which we could all subscribe.

Yes, I know we have to label things. Minors have to be protected from explicit sex and extreme violence. People will nut allergies really do need to know if the chocolate bar they're about to eat contains even a trace of nut.

But I do yearn for fewer labels on works of art (and here I'm including all forms of art, from music and dance to literature and poetry). Let's open our minds and sample whatever comes our way, instead of finding reasons *not* to try stuff.

I now return you to the deathfic debate.

Yvonne

...which is not to disrespect the reasons Nan and others gave for avoiding deathfic.

Deathfic not really my thing, it's not really L&C to me, but it's just a matter of taste.

But I would like to break a lance for Nfic. There are light stories with gratious sex, but they are quite easy to recognize and skim if that is not your pleasure.
But many has an enormous depth dealing with complex adult issues. If people skip them because you think they are soft porn you have missed a lot.

Hmmm, but the problem with this reasoning is that it assumes that labels exist ONLY to exclude things and they don't. This is particularly true with genre labels of any kind. They exist because that's what the consumer buys or wants in enough quantity to get someone's attention. That's both inclusive AND exclusive. I don't look for certain type of book to buy and read just because I don't want another type but because I have a finite amount of time and want to start with what I enjoy.

Does that mean I never take a chance on anything else outside my comfort zone? No. It simply means I'm very selective when I do. I want some information ahead of time so I know what I'm getting into and not simply to keep from squirming. It's also to be more fair to the artist. That informed choice on my part does not diminish the work of art but rather enhance it for me because when I'm more informed ahead of time I tend to judge the work not based on my own expectations but rather on what the artist was attempting to do.

I still may not like it overall, but at least if I'm informed ahead of time then I'm not misled from the start and letting that seriously color my judgment.

Just a thought, but is it possible that this is all a case of missing the forest for the trees? I'm not sure I can explain this but seems to me that this is a case of looking at something, i.e. labeling a story as deathfic, as being about content when it's actually truly about intent, usually intent on the author's part. (Not saying labeling is never about content, just that some labels aren't and I suspect deathfic is one of them.)

Why would most not get upset over the villain in a story dying? Probably because the intent of the story most likely wouldn't be directed towards exploring anyone's grief over it happening.

OTOH, why would so many get truly upset by Lois dying in a story? Probably because the intent is to explore Clark's grief in most cases. This is why I hesitated to post those first tentative parts of Atonement. My brain said it wasn't a deathfic because Lois was already dead. My heart, however, was telling me that my honest intention was most likely to explore Clark having to face the choice of going back in time in an attempt to save her. That is very much directly related to her death and his grief over it. How can it not be? Will it ultimately be considered a deathfic by anyone else? Heck if I know. The only thing I do know is that my own intent gave me pause. Still does if you want the truth.

And isn't the same true of the nfic label to some extent? We can say it's about content and I'll not deny it is related to a content threshold at the very least but in order to cross that threshold the author has to willingly choose to explore certain themes in the first place. Or they can choose not to and that is the crucial turning point to me.

I've only written one nfic. It's probably one of the least graphic stories in the archive but I've know it's nfic because all along my intent was to explore the sexual side of L&C's relationship. That is not PG material no matter how much actually sex is in the story.

I guess what I'm trying to do is make an observation that there seems to be an assumption that a deathfic label is only about giving away the ending to a story, i.e. it's content. Seems to me that's only true if the author's sole intent is to kill someone and only that. Is that truly the only intent of every fanfic where someone dies?

Because if it isn't . . .

Actually, I wasn't thinking of a 'label' in that context at all. I was merely thinking of what constitues a deathfic for me, while I'm reading it. Do I class it as deathfic or not? In the same way I'd say a story I just read was a kidfic or a tearjerker.

I wasn't at all thinking of it in the context of labelling a fic in respect of 'does it need to be labelled so those who don't like deathfic can avoid it'. Despite it being the core debate on this thread, that aspect just wasn't in my mind at all when I last posted.

LabRat

When all is said and done, a writer has to go where the story leads.I dont have to like it, but I do respect it.

Ok, I admit that I have not been reading this whole thread and see that I need to. I've been skiming every once in a while and happened upon Yvonne's above comment.

I am floored. and must admit my naiveté. I thought all nfic was about sex in some way shape and form. I have avoided getting a password for just such a reason.

Personally, I have nothing against violence. I'd rather not read things with truly rough language, but I will make exceptions. I flat out hate pre-marital sex or slashfic, thus the questions I sometimes email some authors or the warnings I get from others (a thank you to those who have warned me ), but that is another soap box, which I may or may not get on in another thread...

I would get a password to the Nfic forum and to Annsplace this second, if I could easily pick the stories that I could read without worrying blundering into soft porn.

As for deathfics...I don't particularly enjoy them, but if they are well done, maybe. Deathfics, to me, are about introspection and I am just not that crazy about that stuff.

James
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I've read this through three times and I still can't figure out where this is different or in opposition to what I said because I wasn't talking about "does it need to be labeled" either. I was talking about the fact that individual elements within a story, like a death or sex, aren't always what the story is really about. Nothing more than that.

However, I also acknowledge that their presence can very well cross a well-defined threshold for many people. I'm not sure the same thing can be said about kids or simple angst.

No answer, just more questions. Really.

You know, this debate has pushed a lot of hot buttons with a lot of people. While reading back through the comments (all of which are valid, and most of which are quite eloquent), I noticed some themes emerging.

Some people hate reading about death. Period. End of sentence. End of discussion.

Some people hate reading about the death or deaths of characters they love.

Some people hate reading about senseless, meaningless death.

Some don't mind if it moves the story along.

Some can accept a story with death in it if the death is somehow noble or self-sacrificing and either saves lives or makes many others safer in the future.

Some think every character in the story has concentric rings painted on his or her back and a neon "Shoot Here" sign pointing at the bullseye.

Just kidding about the last one. But it does show that different people have different tastes and different preferences. Just because I'm willing to kill off one or more of the characters in my story doesn't make it a bad story. (It also doesn't make it a good story.) Those authors who wouldn't write about a chipmunk getting run over haven't cheated the reading public by letting them know that death doesn't visit their stories.

And please, don't think I was bad-mouthing those who write n-fic. I was merely expressing my preference, just like everybody else has. I will never tell any of those authors that they can't or shouldn't write n-fic, but it's highly unlikely that I'll read it if the main theme is sex. Again, that is my personal preference.

My preference isn't the standard by which everyone else is judged, and it shouldn't be. That doesn't mean my preference isn't valid. The readers who don't want to read deathfic have a right to know that someone could die in a given story, and there's no reason to assault their sensitivities by refusing to let them know in general what's coming.

And despite all the very interesting discussion, we still haven't really landed on any deathfic guidelines. I was trying to ask a serious question in a whimsical manner in my earlier post. Would it be a valid guideline to say a major deathfic covers the death of a major positive character (like Clark or Jimmy or the Kents) and a secondary deathfic might describe the death of a secondary or original character?

That brings me to "The Write Stuff." It describes the deaths of four people, three of them murder victims and one rather messy suicide. All of them were original characters within the story. Is that story a deathfic? If so, is it a major or a secondary deathfic?

Please don't take this as whining. I really would like to know, because I don't want to offend anyone. Really. If I do, it's unintentional, and we're here mainly to have fun, right?

Not really, James. I haven't been on the nfic boards on this site, but judging by the list of stories nominated for nKerths, a lot of stories that appear are the same ones that appear on the fanfic forum ... with an added scene or two or three. I hesitated to say this, but I'll go ahead. The references to nfic as porn really offend me. The definition of "porn" is "creative activity (writing or pictures or films etc.) of no literary or artistic value other than to stimulate sexual desire." Since a number of the works on the nfic archive are "n" versions of Kerth winners, I don't think that description applies.

Sorry for the digression. Back to Terry's question about guidelines for deathfic. I thought the board's policy was not to require any kind of labels from authors, so I thought we (the non-deathfic readers) were just explaining our views, not trying to set guidelines.

Terry, I can't imagine how you could give a warning. I guess if Clark hadn't made it back from saving the world from that huge chunk of Krypton in "For the Greater Good," Wendy could have said, "Nan and Sheila keep away, but Ann can read this one." Catherine's recent vignette could have carried a "Nan, Ann, and Sheila keep off" warning. Since the problem for me is the death of Lois or Clark, a Jimmy, Martha, Jonathan, or Perry deathfic could carry a "Sheila can read this one, but Nan and Ann stay away" warning. You could have a little rating system: any death = No Nan; any story in which Lois or Clark dies = No Sheila; and any story in which someone dies without a heroic sacrifice, etc. = No Ann.

I'm being a little facetious because I truly don't see a fair way to warn people, especially with so many variables involved. I'm also unsure how Nan feels about the death of a villainous character. When Phil was planning the demise of Luthor in his final S6 ep, I was cheering him on every step of the way. If Nan feels that way, maybe the rating system could apply only to deaths of the good guys.

I've really tried very hard not to post again (honestly!), but Sheila's great rating proposal did me in. It works! I say we encourage mbs Admin to adopt it.

But now, since I find myself here .... personal opinion warning.

Part of the issue is that when we read fanfic we bring with it the baggage from the show - we already know and care for both the characters of Lois Lane and Clark Kent (and if we don't why are we hanging out on mbs dedicated to Lois and Clark?) . So when a fic kills either character prematurely or even begins with one of them dead, I am, as a reader bereft, a place I don't want to be. (been there in RL - it's not a great place and it's not one you ever truly leave)

For me, such a story is definitely a deathfic - I want to know upfront and not spend time reading a story only to find out the author has eliminatd one of the characters I love.

What about the secondary characters (Perry, Jimmy, the Kents, Ellen, Lucy, Cat?) That's distressing, too, although it depends on their age - Martha, Jonathan, Perry, set say 20 years in the future ...

Bill Henderson ... absolutely not, no, never, ever. A plea to death-writers, We'll give you Clark if you let us keep Bill!

Now an admission - I've written stories in which characters (not the bad guys) have died (well, okay, I as the writer killed them - the smoking keyboard is in my house.) I don't know what to think about that now.

Yes, the "woman demoted to plot device" use which others have mentioned. But more than that - also because Lois is a character in her *own right* for whom many of us care a great deal.

I'm not sure it's as easy as that for some readers to accept though because she already exists so firmly in our minds and hearts. She's not an orginal character whom we've never met before.

Yes, unless at the end he has made the decision to reverse time (as he did in the frist Reeves movie )

Btw, I was really excited when I first saw Beverly had posted a new fic - one of my favourite writers from the past. Sanctuary is terriffic.

Which bridges to nfic

Way too long a post already, though.

But, motion to adopt Sheila's warning system.

c