Lois & Clark Forums Forums Fan Fiction Fanfic Related Deathfic Debate- love 'em, loathe 'em, and everywhere in between...

I love to read deathfics If they are well written. I have read alot that doesn't make sense, and some that are just not to my taste. I guess I like things to be out of order. Yes, I love to read waffy stories. But I also like things to be shaken up everyonce in awhile. Tank is one of the authors I love to read when my mood leans that way.

I guess I love them. And I don't really see a problem in having deathfics. Cause if everything was the same, it would be boring. Now granted, I don't like to see my fave couple being ripped apart. But I don't like to read the same thing over and over again, either.

That's just my opinion.

Rach

Well, I find it interesting that I am the first one to bring up the question of the death penalty at all. If the LNC version of Metropolis couldn't have sentenced Lois to death, then in time, Lois's name could have been cleared, and she and Clark could have been reunited. Lois would still have been a victim of the injustice of the legal system, but things could have been put more or less right again for her and Clark. And Catherine's story wouldn't have been a deathfic.

Like I said, I respect deathfics that shed some serious light on the world we live in. But in my opinion, if you tell a story about an innocent woman being executed and then fail to discuss the death penalty, you are not trying to discuss the injustice of the real world. You are trying to break your readers' heart, but you are not encouraging them to think and draw conclusions.

I have checked the comment threads about Catherine's story and the comment thread here. No one before me thought of even bringing up the question of the death penalty. I take that to mean that Catherine wasn't too interested in the question herself, and that she didn't write her story so that people were encouraged to challenge the fairness of the death penalty itself.

Let me return to Clark's position on the question of the death penalty. You'd think that, when he saw Lois being sentenced to death, he would have wondered what he himself might have done to other people, when he brought them to justice. Or did he bring them to "justice"? He should have asked himself if he had actually contributed to the execution of innocent people - if he had, indeed, innocent people's blood on his hands.

To me, this would be a legitimate story if it seriously discussed the death penalty, since the death penalty is the absolutely necessary prerequisite for Catherine's story to evolve the way it does. The fact that no one before me commented on the death penalty means, to me, that whatever Catherine was trying to accomplish with her story, it wasn't to make us ask ourselves the most crucial questions about the injustice of the judicial system in the world today. Catherine's purpose was only, as far as I can see, to make us feel extremely, extremely sorry for Clark.

And finally, because I feel so terribly bad about Lois and Clark deathfic, I would much appreciate it if deathfics here had to carry a compulsory deathfic warning.

Ann

Quotes are what Ann wrote. Non-quotes are my replies.

I think it is much like the thrill some people get riding a roller coaster. You can get the crap frightened out of you, but you also know deep down you were never in real danger. It gives the emotional experience of terror/fear/rush of excitement at surviving it... all without real risk.

If I'm in the mood to explore the highs and lows of the human psyche... then yes, I find the experience satisfying. Not "fun" but satisfying.

And that is why have the "nasty" habit of reading the ending of the book as soon as am far enough into it to know who the basic players are. Drives my husband NUTS. But I am never stunned or betrayed by an author like you were... b/c I peek. And I enjoy reading MORE for having done so. I respect those who don't want spoilers. I'm very careful not to accidentally give a plot away, unless asked to. But I love spoilers. They keep me safe!

I think you were projecting your own experience onto the scenerio, which is certainly understandable given your age and lack of warning about the ending. In no way do I want to seem like I am minimizing the impact of the experience on YOU, but I don't think your interpretation refleted other audience members' experience. Perhaps the applause was in recognition of a fantastic perfomance? Recognition that the actors/singers brought those characters to LIFE mere feet from where the audience sat.

The catharsis doesn't come from feeling bad...it comes from feeling strongly and then having it end. You go back to real life more thankful, more grateful, more aware. THAT is the part that feels good. But to get there, you have to pay the price of admission. And frankly, I don't think we'd be able to maintain that intensity on a daily basis and stay sane. If I had to "count my blessings" every minute of every day, I'd go nuts. I need to back off a bit, get the job done. Navigate traffic. Pay the bills. Put dinner on the table. But I don't want to live at that distance, either. Fanfic, novels, biographies... they can all pull me back into a deeper emotional state. I hope that makes sense.


I totally disagree here. <grin> Just because they don't exist and aren't "realistic" doen't mean they can't teach us or make us appreciate the human experience. We relate to Clark's feelings of being an outsider. He's a alien, but we've all been "aliens" at one time or another. So we can learn something from Clark, right? Is how death is handled in this universe any diffferent? We all have to face death at some point. If I can get some tips on dealing with it, or practice in processing some of the issues that go along with it.... I'm better prepared for the real thing when it happens. And as far as this particular story... I'd put money on the fact that somewhere, at some time, a truly innocent person HAS been put to death in the name of justice. And loved ones had to endure it. So even this "far fetched" scenerio could happen to different people, in reality. And their pain is very real. They have to decide how to conduct themselves. Shoot the prison warden? Murder the warden's wife next week? Be there to provide moral support during the last moments? Get hysterical and make a scene? Those are real choices they faced, just like Clark did. And there are real consequences... just like in the story.

I hope this helps unmuddy the issue a bit for you Ann. If not...... can you accept that for me, there is indeded redeeming value and "pleasure" that comes from riding an emotional roller coaster, even if the ending is not uplifting? Sometimes the "fun" is the feeling of surviving the ride. Sometimes the pleasure (REAL pleasure) comes later, when I smell the roses and pause a moment, savoring life. It's not the "sadistic" joy of pleasure DURING the pain. It's the pleasure of relief that follows.

Jackie

Ann, I think the reason nobody brought up the legitimacy of the death penalty is because Catherine's story doesn't touch on that question. And just because it doesn't, that doesn't make the story any less legitimate, in my opinion. It's simply not the focal point. It's like saying Plato had no business writing the Apology and Crito, because he didn't discuss and provoke questions about the legitimacy of the death penalty. Are you going to blame Catherine for not turning a Lois & Clark fanfic into a political statement?

About Clark's opinion on corporal punishment, we can go round in circles about it all day, but in the end there's no definitive answer. We can draw on his personality and come up with a solid argument why he would be opposed to it, but he never came right out and said so. In fact, there's a strong indication that he accepts corporal punishment as part of the legal system.

As for compulsory deathfic warnings, I think that should be up to the author. It gives away the ending and some people may prefer not to be spoiled.

Just to get back on topic, I enjoy deathfic if it's well written, just like I sometimes enjoy movies if the ending's unhappy or ends with the death of a main character. It all depends on how it's done.

Ann, while I understand you're very much upset by having read a deathfic, our policy here is to *not* make warnings compulsory. Usually, authors will put a warning at the top of their story or in the WHAM warning thread if it's going to involve the death of a major character. However, this is a simpler courtesy and is by no means compulsory. We've had debates in the past about making such warnings compulsory, and the admin team decided against it, mostly because it would be an open door to all kinds of warning, like "Lois is kissing someone other than Clark" warnings or "Lois and Clark don't end up romantically involved at the end of this story" warnings. We really don't want to reach that point.

Ultimately, authors make choices, both when writing their story and when posting it with a foreword warning or not their readers. While I understand you were upset, I'm going to ask you to not repeatedly try to interpret Catherine's intentions when writing her story. I'm pretty sure she didn't mean to upset you by writing her story, and she doesn't deserve to be continually pointed at as someone who broke rules - she certainly didn't.

Kaethel
Boards Administrator

For me, it's not the skill of the writer, but the subject- death is death, well written or not. With death there is no curtain call, no second chance, no eraser on the end of your pencil. Once death has come,no tears, or shouts to heaven,will ever, ever change a thing.Death means you are out of time, eternally ,forever, fin.Where is the hope in that?

I repectfully and emphatically disagree. Just because the death penalty wan't the focus doesn't make the story an exercise in angst for the sake of angst. It means that the focus was on the consequence of this "what if" question. In this story, there were certain facts, certain circumstances, that were established. THIS was the hand Clark and Lois were dealt. Here are the cards. Now... given that hand of cards, what are they going to do with them?

The question was not IF poker is a good game. Heck, maybe they shouldn't even play solitaire! Cards might be evil. But that wasn't the question in this story; it's a question for a different story. THIS story asked "What do you do if you find yourself in position X even if you never asked to be here. But life doesn't always ask us before things happen.

What mother ASKED for her son to be on death row? The child she rocked at night with a 101 degree fever. The child she read stories to.... she never INTENDED to see him executed. But sometimes it happens that her precious little boy grows up into a very BAD man. Now what does she do? In my opinion, that about as real as it gets. And if we are forced to think about that mother, that father, that brother, that sister... that spouse... the story did indeed have a purpose beyond making Clark suffer.
Jackie

I have to write a short clarification here. I'm sorry I said that Catherine's story would have been "legitimate" if it had included a discussion about the death penalty. "Legitimate" was a bad choice of words. I mean, instead, that to me Catherine's story would have been interesting and thought-provoking if it had included a discussion about the death penalty.

I really wanted to bring this aspect up just to show what I find interesting about deathfic - the way it can make us realize things about the real world.

To me, though, experiencing the devastating emotion of seeing Lois die can never be worth it, if the emotion itself is all I get out of it.

Ann

SJH's position is very similar to mine. While writers can address any subject in their fanfics that they wish, Lois and Clark, the TV show, was about hope, first, last and always. Even Mxy said something similar to Clark in the comics, when he and Lois were discussing the possibility of children. When a story rips Lois and Clark apart forever and destroys everything they were, I can't see any hope whatsoever in it.

I would be the last person in the world to tell someone they can't write a certain story. I simply tried earlier to make clear the reasons why I can't read deathfics, and if I do read one by accident that I have nothing but resentment for the writer who didn't warn me. I fail to see why my viewpoint is any less valid than the viewpoints of others who enjoy deathfic. As I said earlier, yes, death is a part of life, but so are a lot of things you wouldn't want to see outside of a medical textbook. Just because I don't want to see the death of my favorite fanfic characters in a fanfic, it doesn't mean I am not fully aware of the fact of death. Maybe avoiding it does omit a fairly important aspect of life, but you know what, when I'm reading fanfic for escape, I *want* to leave that aspect out, important or not. I don't want to dwell on death when I'm looking for relief from the unpleasant realities of real life. It's not really something I get any joy from.

In any case, I'm willing to grant my respect to those who enjoy deathfic, but I'd appreciate a little respect for my position in return, so I don't have to feel that my viewpoint is considered somehow trivial because it doesn't happen to coincide with that of the majority.

Nan

No. The point is, I'm a grown-up and I get to choose what stories I spend my time reading.

Where are you getting the impression that your viewpoint is not respected? Isn't it out of respect for your viewpoint one of the very reasons that many writers post WHAM warnings? Your viewpoint is not trivial. I am totally missing where the impression that your position is trivial or not respected is coming from. I'm VERY confused here...

Jackie

I'm sorry, Jackie. I phrased that badly, but it's hard to explain. I have stated many times how much I really hate deathfic, and given reasons, and I'm essentially being told that my reasons are somehow wrong, misguided or something. I should accept death as a part of life (which I am all too aware of, btw) etc, etc. It leaves me with the impression that no matter what I say, the reasons for my genuine loathing of deathfics are somehow unimportant and I should change my attitude, which there is no chance of me doing. I have no objection to the attitudes of those who like such stories, but I really don't like being told that my reasons aren't valid -- and I've been told that by teachers who couldn't understand why I detested "The Red Badge of Courage", "Where the Red Fern Grows" and stories of a similar ilk. It just seems that to be considered someone of real depth and understanding you are supposed to like this stuff, and very few people are able to grasp the really deep revulsion I have for it. I like my stories to end with hope. Despair doesn't do anything for me at all but make me angry.

Nan

I do genuinely understand your feelings on the subject, Nan. I think what puzzles me is that I haven't actually seen anyone here saying that anyone who doesn't like deathfic should change their minds or that their reasons for not liking it are trivial. Various posters have just explained their own particular perspective - why it either bothers them or it doesn't.

As LabRat said way back in this thread, we all have our own preferences, likes and dislikes in fanfic. I'm well known for not much liking babyfic. Though I wouldn't for one moment compare my reasoning here to yours.

I just haven't seen anyone who does read deathfic indicate that they don't respect the opinions and preferences of those who don't. Maybe you misunderstood someone's intent?


Wendy

Maybe. I hope so. I've just run into so much complete disbelief over the years that I couldn't like some fabulous, wonderful story, full of deep layers of meaning, etc. etc., where the protagonist dies at the end. I'm told that I just can't see the deep underlying message in the story, and the thing is that all the great things that happened earlier are completely negated for me by the ending. It gets a little frustrating after a while.

In any case, I certainly have no objection to anyone writing deathfic, including Catherine. I just want to be warned ahead of time so I can stay away from it.

Nan

P.S.: I hated Love Story, too.

Oh, me too! And City of Angels... What a waste of time and energy invested into a doomed romance! (Didn't help that Nicholas Cage behaved like a bloody stalker, of course... )


Wendy

For the record, I think that anyone (those teachers you mentioned above included) that tries to tell someone that their TASTES are WRONG is shallow themself and possibly trying to compensate for it! :-) To imply that you would like something only if you "gave it a chance" or were "sophisticated" enough to comprehend the deeper issues is inexcusable at best. I'm sorry you've had to suffer the ignorance of those people. Hopefully, you'll never encounter that attitude here. But that history does explain your statement above.

Jackie

Understandable, Nan. But I really don't think you've been getting that here in this thread. Reading the thread, I, too, have been very confused as to where you seemed to be finding anyone disrespecting your views or telling you your opinion wasn't valid or was trivial. I could only find posts saying quite the opposite in fact! Most posters seem to be going out of their way to say that everyone's opinion is equal in this.

So thanks for clarifying where you've been coming from on that.

Once again, I'd reiterate that tastes differ and no one need be ashamed or defensive of that. It's what makes us unique as individuals and that's nothing negative. On either side of the divide.

I'm quite amazed actually to hear that your teachers would castigate you for not enjoying a particular movie. That's really quite outrageous. Although, I have to say that I've often come across the same attitude in respect to the 'classics'. There are very few examples of classic literature that I've enjoyed reading and which haven't bored me to tears (although I enjoy many of them acted out on screen) and I don't really see why I should read and enjoy them any more than any other novel just because someone, somewhere, has decided they're somehow special. So I share that sense of irritation with you when someone tsks and says, "You mean you haven't read Jane Austin?" as though it's some kind of social crime.

Anyway...Love Story I can agree with you on. Maudlin nonsense imo. The worst of saccharine, artificial emotion grafted on to a plot.

LabRat

PS - apologies to Wendy in advance for choosing Jane Austin as an example.

Oh wow! Wendy, you were onto something when you said in Catherine’s story FDK thread that this should be made into a separate thread for discussion and that it would be an interesting read. Because this is such an interesting read! I’ve been scrambling to find time at work to get to the site and see the new posts!

After thinking about this a lot, I realized that I am not passionately on either side of this issue. I have two mentalities – my Archive Mentality and my Boards Mentality. When I go to the archive, I am looking for a story and those searches reflect the types of stories I am interested in. Basically S1-S2 getting together scenarios, adaptations of favorite episodes like BatP, Hol, TOGoM, etc. I definitely don’t go looking for deathfics. So when I’m on the archive, I’m on a mission, and a little more close-minded. I know what I’m looking for, I have story descriptions to guide me and make me think I’ve found something I’d like.

Now... when I go to the Boards, I am not sure what a story is about, but I am always dying to see everyone’s work – see what/how they write and how they tell the story they choose to tell. I don’t read every story on the board, but I do read many. And I definitely read many stories that I know I would never read on the archive. I will find myself thoroughly enjoying a story that doesn’t fit into any of my favorite genres or just wrapped up in someone’s writing and style, even though the story is not exactly my general cup of tea

I am the same way with books. I enjoyed so many of the required reading I had at school from grade school through college. But if you put me in a bookstore and told me I could buy any of the books there, those would not be the ones I would buy.

Sorry if that doesn’t make any sense!! I guess what I’m trying to say is the boards allow me to sample other kinds of stories than the ones I stick to, the ones I enjoy the most. I will sometimes not like the stories or if I do, I will only read them once. The stories I love that I’ll read over and over again are pretty much in the archive category for me.

Now deathfics are more complicated, true. And I, too, definitely love the feeling of hope that this fandom provides – that these characters - this classic love story - provides. Seeing one of them die leaves you with a feeling that… well, isn’t that So I can understand why there are many people that won’t read these stories. I’ve seen words in this thread like “catharsis” and “escapism” and, well… they mean something different to everyone. We all read for different reasons. To escape different realities, long for different worlds. It's a very, very personal thing, and it should be! It would be boring if we all liked the same stories, if we all read for the same reasons, wrote for the same reasons… So there will be writers who explore something other writers would run the other way from. And for those writers there are readers who will want to read it… and readers who won’t. And like I said before, I am not passionately against deathfics. I just don’t seek them out.

For me, it’s simple: As a writer, I am constantly in search of good writing that I can lose myself in. Learn from. Writing that can evoke real emotions from me. As a reader – pretty much the same

So I think in this discussion, I fall somewhere to the middle (I'm a Libra, it's my lot in life )

~Nicole

You know, I think I totally read something into Catherine's story that maybe I shouldn't have. Regarding TOC's comment on how none of the comments mentioned the death penalty: I guess I sort of assumed the story WAS commenting on the death penalty--on the tragedy that occurs when justice goes awry. This is what would happen if Lois were to be executed for a crime the audience knew she didn't commit. I don't think I actually mentioned "death penalty" but I'm pretty sure I referred to the tragedy of it all. So, I guess I assumed, perhaps erroneously, that the point was at least partially to do with that. Whoops.

To Nan et al, I totally understand why you don't read deathfics and wouldn't wish to be within a ten-foot-pole of one. Sometimes I feel the same. As I mentioned above, I was really upset at having to read Black Beauty in school. I think most of us were trying to just discuss what we do find worthwhile in them, and why we do think they are worth writing/reading. I guess I was feeling somewhat castigated for liking them, as if I were juvenile or somehow lacking in real world knowledge--but you have said that wasn't the point, so I'm glad

Happy stories are always okay in my book too. My favourite stories, after all, end happily. And if I weren't such a sucker for hope and optimism, I most definitely wouldn't have watched this show. There's a lot of cheesiness after all

You guys won't be surprised that I hate deathfics. Having my 21-year-old son die in my arms increased my intolerance for such stories, but I have always hated stories that tear Lois & Clark apart permanently. That's probably because I am one of those readers who becomes totally immersed in a fic. For me, Lois and Clark have never been made-up characters that I can manipulate like Play-Doh figures. They exist as real people, maybe not in an alternate reality, but certainly in a corner of my heart, and what hurts them hurts me. I'm glad it's that way for some of you. It isn't for me. Emotional rollercoasters that end painfully never leave me with a feeling of relief afterwards. The better the writing and the fewer distractions arising from, for example, overly poetic language or non-American spelling or usage, the worse the reaction. After merely skimming Becky Bain's Ad Astra story, I was depressed for over a week.

Life is too short for me to waste being unnecessarily depressed, so I'm picky about what I read. Unfortunately, the wham warning on the most recent story could have applied equally well to Tank's "Love Disabled," in which one of the major characters was left broken. But his story was still a story of triumph and hope, and because I knew and enjoyed his story, I risked reading this one. Thankfully, I was unable to suspend my disbelief about the time frame of the premise long enough to get involved in the story.

I wish there was a way to let those of us who truly hate deathfics know about them ahead of time, but I can't think of anything that wouldn't impose on a different group of readers instead. But as you see from the way we describe our feelings, this isn't just a matter of preferring one kind of story over another (S1 vs S4 stories) or finding certain subject matter uninteresting (stories about secondary characters or about children/babies). Some of us are seriously distressed when we read these stories. Ah, well, I guess we'll just gritch, either publicly or privately, when we stumble onto one.