Lois & Clark Forums Forums Fan Fiction Fanfic Related Deathfic Debate- love 'em, loathe 'em, and everywhere in between...

Your preference is perfectly valid, Terry. And there is nothing in my post to say otherwise. And no one here would object to your expressing that preference. Providing you do so within the guidelines of this forum.

What isn't valid is telling another author on this forum that their work is 'a cheap attempt at soft porn'. That's coming as close to flaming another board member as is possible. It's offensive and disrespectful.

Sadly, not, Terry. You went much further than simply expressing a preference.

You say that you didn't intend to badmouth nfic or its authors. But quite frankly I'm not sure how you expected telling an author they are writing cheap attempts at soft porn to be taken as anything else but badmouthing. It certainly wasn't a compliment.

Do I think you intended to cause offense? No, not at all. You're not a troublemaker and I don't believe you'd deliberately set out to offend anyone.

Do I think you simply didn't think it through before typing that comment? Yes. I believe that's probably true. Which is why I'm advocating that a little extra thought time before you hit post might be a good idea.

But no one has - or will - ask you not to give your opinion. You don't like nfic. Cool. You want to say so. That's fine. All that you - or anyone else - is being asked to do is think how you word that preference when you express an opinion about it and respect your fellow board members in the language you use.


LabRat

Sheila, how come you manage to say the things the rest of us are struggling to express?

So, let me formulate the No Ann deathfic warning. The story you'd better warn me off goes like this. Lois is alive in the beginning of the story, and she gets killed at or before the end. She doesn't die a natural death, but she gets killed (or executed - basically the same thing). The story is told in such a way that Clark and other family members don't grieve too much over her death (in which case I won't even be appeased by her return to life). Or else, Clark's grief is the whole point of the story, whereas Lois herself, as a person, is unimportant.

These two kinds of Lois deathfics not only kill Lois, but they also tell us that Lois was never important in herself when she was alive. We are not asked to take an interest in Lois herself in these stories. We are not asked to identify with her or to wish her well. She is, I think, either treated as an appendage or an accessory which can be discarded since she/it doesn't matter anyway, or else she is treated as Clark's pet interest and obsession, which could have been Krypto the dog for all the difference it would have made to the story about Clark's grief. Like I said, in both these kind of stories Lois doesn't matter and she starts out alive and ends up killed.

So, people, if any of you are going to write such a story, please warn me not to read it. Because if you don't, I'm going to post a challenge for you. The challenge will go like this: Try to write a story which naturally invites us to identify with Lois, care about Lois and wish Lois well. Are you Lois-killers capable of doing that?

Edit: So, don't I hate Clark deathfics? Well, it seems to me that while the Lois deathfics invite us to grieve for Clark, the Clark deathfics also invite us to grieve for Clark. The Clark deathfics generally make us feel that Clark was important while he was alive, whereas the Lois deathfics don't necessarily care much about Lois. That's why I don't feel that the Clark deathfics hurt and belittle Clark the way the Lois deathfics hurt and belittle Lois.

Ann

Well, I wrote a story last year in which Lois was killed. A Twist of Fates. I don't think that I come across, as a writer, as someone who sees Lois merely as a cipher. But then, what do I know? Maybe you should tell me: do I treat Lois with disrespect in my writing? Do I not identify with her? Do I treat her as a mere appendage?

I respect your views on deathfic, Ann, and your wish to avoid it at all costs. But I don't think that being disrespectful to authors who have written fic in which a major character dies is appropriate or fair.


Wendy

Actually, Wendy, I love A Twist of Fates! You can't possibly think that that story is disrespectful of Lois, can you? And it's not as if the ending of it would really make us feel depressed? I mean, honestly!!!

The way I see it, A Twist of Fates isn't a deathfic. And it's a totally great Lois story! I just love it.

And as I've already said, I don't think deathfics have to be avoided at all costs. But as I've also said, if a writer wants to kill Lois just to make us feel sorry for Clark, then I'd like to get something a little stronger than just a WHAM warning about that story.

I think perhaps you asked me if I think you disrespect Lois. Well, I don't recall you ever really killing Lois in any story of yours. Okay, I haven't read them all - there are, after all, over 160 of them in the Archive, but to my knowledge, you've never killed her. Perhaps you've killed her in a Tank-and-Wendy story with a Tank ending? If you have, I will think of it as a joke - not a very funny joke, but a joke nonetheless. Perhaps you've made Lois sacrifice her own life in order to save somebody else in one of your stories? If you have, I'll never truly like that story, because it will depress me, but I will certainly respect it. Perhaps you've written a story where Lois dies of old age? That would be okay with me, too.

It is certainly possible to treat a character disrespectfully without killing him or her. But as far as I can remember, you've never tortured Lois just to make us cry for Clark, for example. And with the possible exception of Without Consent, I don't think you have made Lois suffer too horribly in any story - and I have no principal objections to Without Consent, partly because that story is about the suffering of Lois and Clark. Besides, I really think it is all right to write a story where Lois is suffering quite badly, as long as you are not treating her suffering gleefully or insensitively. And you have never, and I mean never, made me feel that Lois's life and feelings aren't important to you. So where would I find the disrespect?

Edit: Beverly, in case you are reading this, please understand that I have no objection to the idea of starting a story off with the premise that Lois is dead. Whether or not I will dislike such a story depends on what happens later (e.g., I will certainly hate it if Clark finds another love interest, lives happily ever after and forgets Lois).


Ann

Wendy, you had me thinking I hadn't read Twist of Fates there for a second. <g> So I had to check it again. Yep, as I thought, Lois is alive and well at the end of the fic. So not a deathfic, but rather a 'temporary out-of-body' fic, a la Tryst or Out of Time. Who knows, maybe that's what I was writing in the character Jeff in Yesterday Upon the Stairs?

opinion warning again.

I didn't get that sense of disresepct at all from what Ann had written, but rather a sense of concern about those stories which trivialize Lois Lane. I guess we filter people's comments through our own particular prisms.

On the subject of warnings, it's all a bit circular. Some writers don't want to give away their endings, but in order to maintain their sense of 'artistic prerogative' (sorry for that very pompous term but nothing else is coming to mind) they have to be willing to disrespect the feelings of some of their readers. Some readers, in order to protect their own feelings, have to to ask that the writers resepct those feelings as more important than their own individual 'artistic perogative'.

c. (who is trying very hard and failing)

I read that story and had no problem with it, Wendy. More than that, actually. I enjoyed it. But it wasn't a deathfic because it didn't end with L&C separated by death. Similarly, for example, if Catherine had written her "Betrayal of Justice" so that Clark took Lois's dead body to STAR Labs where Dr. Klein revived her (which is possible from that kind of death even at our current level of medical science), and if Catherine had then explored Lois & Clark's sense of betrayal and decision to leave Superman behind, I would have been cheering and waving flags. It wouldn't have been a deathfic, and she could have spent real time exploring the effect of that betrayal and how L&C ultimately reconciled their sense of betrayal by the justice system with Clark's need to use his powers to help the innocent and helpless.

Maybe that's the difference for me. It's like ML's "Death of a Reporter" (?), in which Lois dies, but is brought back by TPTB because of Clark's desperate need for her. Or even the old "Scent of Magnolias" (?), in which an aged Lois dies before Clark but comes to him every night in a form he can hear and see and touch until he finally dies of old age and joins her, both young again. A deathfic ends with them separated, with the survivor in pain, always knowing what he/she has lost and cannot have again. For me, a deathfic denies the power of love or hope or courage or goodness or faithfulness to triumph over obstacles or overcome evil, and I can't read that. LOL! Maybe because I spent 75 minutes writing my previous post and then changed it four times after I posted it? Having been involved in several flame wars and once, to my shame, instigated one, I have finally learned to read ... re-read for the connotations of my words ... read yet again, picturing the people to whom I am responding and anticipating their reactions ... and then edit until I have removed any heat or finger-pointing. That, more than anything, explains why I don't participate more on the boards. If I responded to more than one or two threads per week, I would have no life at all. (Dang--I'm up to 50 minutes on this one and running out of time before work!)

Well, what we've tried to do on the boards, as you know, Carol, is to encourage a voluntary system of co-operation which, from what I can tell, most authors are happy to go along with. I think it would be unfair to require authors to post warnings which reveal part of their plot, but asking nicely seems to be working fairly well so far. Either in the story header, or by using the WHAM warning thread (where authors can be more specific without worrying about spoiling those readers who don't want to be spoiled), authors are, from what I can see, trying to be helpful to those readers who are genuinely upset by serious WHAMs.

Ann - and others - I used A Twist of Fates (admittedly, somewhat disingenuously) as an example because I wanted to make a general point, but it was easier to make in relation to myself. Yes, ATOF was not a deathfic in the strict sense, because Lois lives. But the point I wanted to make was that to suggest that anyone who does kill Lois in a story doesn't respect the character is unfair, to say the least, and could be considered offensive.

We all love the characters in our own way. It could be argued that, by giving Lois 24 hours to live and putting her through sheer torture, I want her to suffer and therefore can't have any respect for her as a character. I used my story as an example to make the point that it is not the case that anyone who kills a character in a story does not love the character, does not respect the character or sees the character as disposable. As with any other choice in fanfiction, it's all a matter of individual preference, and it's not fair to assign one person's interpretation onto another writer's choice.


Wendy

I've been working on a post for over an hour - like Sheila, I edit and re-edit over and over again - and see that some of what I was going to say has been covered by those who have posted while I was working on the bloomin' thing.

I have no aversion to deathfic, although I don't actively go out of my way looking for it. I can understand and do respect the intense and visceral reactions that people can feel for deathfic, even when I don't have those reactions myself.

If the death in the story seems, to me, to only be serving the plot purpose of having Clark or Lois grieving needlessly, then I will be disappointed by it, and will make a point of not rereading the story.

Has that happened in this fandom? Probably, but hardly often, unless there are a lot more deathfics out there than I am aware of. I've been reading L&C fic for 5 years now, but I still haven't worked my way through every story on the Archive, so there could be others out there that I haven't yet run across.

Ann wrote:
As I said, I may have missed these, but off the top of my head I can't think of one story where Lois - in life OR in death - was trivialized and deemed unimportant. I don't want a public - or private - list of the stories that you think fit this category, Ann, but how many are we talking about here? 2, 5, 20?

I think the "wham" thread that is stickied to the top of the fanfic forum is a good device for authors to use. Perhaps we could add a subject "for new authors" or something like that in the FAQs. It could point out the wham thread and list any other information that a new author could find useful when posting their first story here. Obviously not everyone will read it, but if it catches at least one person's eye and helps avoid a problem, it would be worth it.

Now I'm not criticizing Catherine for not posting in that thread. And she did use both a wham warning and a permanent "broken-toys" warning at the top of her story. I'm simply saying that perhaps she wasn't aware of the thread's existence or significance, where she could, if she had wanted, have given a more specific warning that Lois would die and the story would not end happily.

Kathy

Oops, Wendy, that's not at all what I meant by "circular" - what I was trying to suggest was that the needs of some readers and the needs of some writers blurr into each other and overlap and so they becomes part of a circle, in which it's difficult to tell where the reader's needs start/end and where the writer's needs start /end.

Does that make any sense?

If I go back over the years, I can think of several off the top of my head which did do just that. Now that's my own interpretaion of how those fics portrayed the character and may or may not be what the author wished to do, in fact, nor will it necessarily be how other readers interpret that same portrayal. I can think of a couple fics which did the same for Clark, too, btw.

c

I'm sorry, Wendy, but I did say in my previous post that I *don't* think that anyone who kills Lois is automatically disrespectful of her. I gave three examples of how a writer could kill Lois without being disrespectful. I certainly admit that there are also other ways to kill Lois and still show her respect.

But I'm going to keep insisting that the idea of killing Lois just to make us feel sorry for Clark *is* disrespectful. People, yesterday I read once again in a Swedish newspaper that 100-200 million women have been killed in what The Economist calls "gendercide". Okay. Does that mean that because 200 million women have been killed, our proper response should be to feel really, really sorry for 200 million men? Perhaps we should write a few fics describing the actual blow-by-blow killings of some of those women, so we can really cry for all those bereaved and lonely men out there?

Ann

...Death is not romantic...
...You're young and naive, so...
...Using and belittling Lois...

These are the three main things that struck me as I read. The first two are the ones that dug under my skin the most.

Yes, I understand that death is not romantic. Death is brutal and horrible, like a leg being cut off, and if you're unlucky enough you get to watch helplessly as it rots off and there's nothing you can do to stop it. So no, death in itself is not romantic. Perhaps then I see the way people survive romantic. No, not in the gushy mushy way, but the way that hearts DO seem to heal afterwards, how ever though they are nearly destroyed by the death of a loved one they someohow manage to get up in the morning. And even though the pain never fully leaves a person, eventually there's a day where you wake up and can go a few hours before you think about it.

And I may be young, but I'm not all that Naive. While I was never in any immediate danger with the exception of a couple mortar rounds, I WAS in a warzone for nine months. I'm one of the lucky ones who never fired her weapon at a living target, but I know people who have. I know the toll it takes on them, I've seen the piece of themselves they lost when they had to take another human's life, even though it had been the enemy. I've heard explosions on nearly a daily basis, each time wondering if it hit one of my own, or civillians. So, while I haven't experienced death, I've seen what it does.

And, truthfully, though I haven't experienced death I AM (to use my above analogy) watching helplessly as my leg rots off. I have been for several months now. My father, who was diagnosed with level FOUR metastatic Melenoma not six months ago, is on what are perhaps his last weeks. I went home this past weekend and saw with my own eyes what death does. He's not dead yet, but he's not the man he was before. And while the fact that he's dying is in no way romantic whatsoever, I think that the fact that his beloved wife (my beloved stepmother) gave up everything - she was working AND going to school - to make his last moments on earth as peaceful and as comfortable as she can, yes I find that to be one of the most romantic things on this earth. When I talk about romance here, I'm not meaning wining and dining, I mean the beauty of the love they share. And when I see them together still, I see a love that anyone of us would kill to have. And they're losing that, and talking to my stepmom she said she wouldn't give back a single day of the five years they spent together, even knowing the heartache she's going through and will go through. I've seen a man watch his older brother, a mother and father watching their son, heck I'm watching my own FATHER die.

And I apologize for the rant, but to suggest that I'm too naive to know what death does to people is patronizing and if I may be blunt a little insulting.

*deep breath, big grin*

Sorry. Anyway. I am in no way saying that those of you who prefer not to read deathfic shouldn't feel that way. There are subjects I myself hate to read, and to have someone tell me I'm WRONG for not liking it would grate my nerves to no end. And I also realize that most of this wouldn't have happened had I written 'Deathfic' somewhere in the beginning. I've learned, and from now on the deathfic warning would probably take up half the frickin page.

And now, onto my having been able to bring Lois back. Yes, its true. There are ways in the LnC universe that Lois may have been brought back. Who knows, they could be living somewhere isolated where people never even heard of Lois and Clark, happily feeding eachother pineapple bits. I didn't write anything about their whereabouts afterward. Just about Jimmy's reaction.

But really though, wouldn't bringing her back lessen things? Kind of cheapen the whole thing as well? While it would work in several cases, as it did in the story Wendy mentioned above, it doesn't work on all. Would Romeo and Juliet (a play I don't like) have been as impactful had they found a miracle cure at the end? Not that I compare myself to shakespeare or anything.

Anyway, that's my past due long winded response to this thread.

And I think that even after my dad passes I'd still read deathfic, still write it even. But that's just me, really.

And another thing: I personally don't feel that what I wrote was disrespectful or lowered Lois in anyway. No, it wasn't JUST to show Clark's pain although we did see that.

And no Ann, I wouldn't mourn for the 200 men. I would feel for the families of the women who died, because there ARE people out there that had loved them. But really... Gendercide? I would be more enraged that something like that even happened. And why bring up just the women who died? Why not mention the countless thousands who die every day? Why NOT mourn for the families who lost their loved ones as WELL as those who lost their lives? Is that disrespectful to the people who DID die? Am I supposed to mourn JUST the loss of my father, and not the heartache left behind? So while you insist that my handling of BoJ was disrespectful to Lois, please allow me to maintain that it was NOT. I was as true to her character as I could be, and to me that IS respect.

And now I really must end this because its getting to be longer than most fic I write... That and I'm hungry and lunch will be over soon.

-CB

WOW! I didn't expect it to get this big. I understand where all of you are coming from. And I know it's "hard" for some to read deathfics. Understandable.

But what I don't get is why you feel that you have to pick a story apart to get the meaning. It's a story, big deal. I know for some of you it is. But that's why there is that title up top that indicates a "WHAM" or some will have a warning of a deathfic. I know most of you no matter what is on the top, will read it, then get upset. I guess it's one of those "don't look down" issues.

Most of the deathfics I read are true to Lois's character. I haven't read a story yet that has Lois strapped to the sears tower and superman waving goodbye in a carefree attitude. Some of these writers have had these story's come out from the pain they are in.Depressed,Angry, Even mourning. I know a few that has. That's how they get a impacted well written story. Just saying that people don't have respect or that we are lessening the character is kinda offensive. This is called fanfiction for a reason. If we want to mold our characters and make them bend a certain way. I say we have a right to do it. But, for some reason. Every time we do. There are a few people that will read the story, and start a big ol' controversy. We are not trying to disrespect anyone or even the characters. And not really trying to jump on anyone but....


That is just really tacky to even bring that up. That has no purpose to even bring that up in here. We are not talking about 200 million other people. We are talking about "Lois" and "Clark". But if you feel the need to write a sob story for those poor 200 million men. Go for it.

Rach

Carol, you are absolutely right. Just because I can't think of any this moment doesn't mean that I won't come up with 5 before bedtime. And you and I could read the exact same story and get two different - either slightly different or radically so - interpretations, impressions, and feelings from it. And neither of us would be wrong, because we are each coming into this with our own unique experiences influencing - maybe even clouding - what we read and what we feel about these characters. This is so true for all of us, as evidenced here in this thread as to why some of us have such a loathing for deathfic and why others are relatively ambivalent.

Catherine, I don't presume to speak for Sheila, but I don't think she meant to belittle or cheapen your story in any way. I assume she was giving an example of how a story with this premise could be altered slightly so that it would be more - for lack of a better word - comfortable for her to read. That doesn't imply in any way that it would make it a *better* story, but simply that she could read it without being jolted out of her "comfort zone".

Because people do have comfort zones. Some will read anything, some won't read any kind of nfic, some won't read kidfic... The list goes on. Although some of the deathfic stories have affected me on a deep emotional level - like with Catherine's, I sat there for several moments with my jaw just flapping open - I tend to have a real hangup with Clark getting "close" to another woman. Even a kiss can set me off. That sounds so stupid when you compare it to the traumas that people have faced in their daily lives and the emotions they bring with them to their reading and writing, but that's my personal bugaboo.

Kathy

May I respectfully suggest we all pull back a bit, take a deep breath, and calm down?


Catherine's story had a warning: "Disclaimer: I own them not. However, I didn’t put them back as I found them. Consider this your WHAM warning as well."

To me, that is crystal clear that the toys get broken by the end. Not everyone will like it. Even this bit of a warning is a courtesy, not a requirement. And I think we should stick with courtesy and requests for these warnings, not requirements. If I felt I had to evaluate my story for all of the warnings and content that might upset some reader, I'd never post. EVER. (No.. haven't posted L&C fanfic yet. But I have ideas.. and I have written and published fanfic for other shows.)

However…. this discussion is supposed to be about deathfic in general, NOT about Catherine's story specifically. Yes, her story was the catalyst for this discussion, but it could just as easily been some other story, so let's not put undue focus on BoJ, okay?

And can we not go down the road where we start critiquing each other's views of what is and is not "respect" for a character? It's subjective. I don't think any fanfic writer does this for any reason other than respect for the show, the ideas, and the characters. We may perceive the results differently, but we cannot really judge motives because motives have never been publically stated.

It's been a fascinating discussion, but I'm starting to see sand flying around in the sandbox here... and I hate getting sand in my eyes. So let's throw a bucket of cold water on it and make it stick a bit more, fly a bit less, and go back to talking about our individual perceptions.

I can speak only for myself. I think that is true for each of us. So let's get back to explaining why we each feel and think the way we do. It's more sensitive to the feelings of others, provides more context for understanding, and in my opinion, is more interesting. For example, if you want to discuss a case of 200 women killed for genocide--- talk about how YOU feel about it, how you interpret it, how you react to it. I can respond in kind, and we'll walk both away more informed.

Please?

Jackie

Eek! I didn't mean to imply that exactly. =D It was also me telling myself not to write a sequel, because I had been entertaining that notion myself. Even though what I said is true, there's a part of me bopping me upside the head screaming 'She can't be dead, she can't be!!' In a way, I wrote a little outside my own comfort zone, but the story wouldn't allow for any less, by golly! (And I admit to having typed that up while still on the ending flare of my previous topics.)

And I understand about the kiss thing... it makes me squirrely as well.

Catherine, when I brought up those 200 million women, I didn't mean that 200 million women and 200 million men have died. I meant, instead, that an excess of 200 million women have died, and that people are either unaware of the fact, or else they just don't care.

This has nothing to do with your story. And, indeed, I have said a few things here that have been unfair to you.

But, I have to tell you that you said one thing about Lois's death over on the thread commenting specifically about your Betrayal of Justice story, a thing that has stuck with me and has fuelled my own anger: To me, your comment meant that you would indeed kill Lois just to tell a story about Clark. You even called your own killing of Lois secondary. That very choice of words made me furious. And it did very strongly suggest to me that you were, indeed, only using and belittling Lois in order to tell a story about Clark. In turn, this suggested to me that you see Lois as an appendage to Clark, who you regard as the main character here.

Catherine, like I said, nothing - and I mean nothing - upsets me more than seeing an excess of women being killed and people being totally indifferent to it. As for those 200 million women, that figure has been described as a Holocaust killing only women, one such Holocaust every two to four years. And people couldn't care less. As if women's lives don't matter. So I'm hyper-sensitive to stories which appear to kill women in an insensitive or thoughtless way.

So, then. Didn't you tell a worthy story? As I've said before, I haven't really read it, because I know I absolutely won't be able to stand it. But so many FoLCs have read it, and the only ones who have been complaining are people like me and Nan, who can't stand the subject matter. Everyone who felt the subject matter was acceptable at all has been raving about it. How can I possibly doubt that your story is well written? That it brings up the specific subject that you wanted to describe, in a worthy way? I can't. I know your story is great.

I haven't been exactly fair to you, Catherine. I have been incredibly emotional. I hope you can understand where some of my emotions come from.

Even so, let me end by saying this. I would appreciate it if you wrote a story where you made us really feel for and identify with Lois. I don't think you have written anything like that so far. You have made us laugh at Lois, and possibly even laugh with Lois, and you have made us cry for Clark. But you haven't yet written a story which makes me feel that you can look at things from Lois's point of view. I guess the closest you've come is your crossdressing story, but I'd like to identify with Lois on other occasions too, and not just when she is being Lewis to Clark's Clara.

Specifically, Catherine, I do want to ask you not to kill Lois again in such a way that Lois's death is just a secondary thing in the story.

Ann

This is my third post to this thread today, and probably three too many.
My interpretation of Catherine's comment was that the primary focus of the story was an exploration of Clark's reaction to the justice system - which he so staunchly believed in and supported - betraying him so completely. Call that the "A" plot, if you will, with Lois's death as the "B" plot (or obvious catalyst for the "A" plot). This does not automatically mean that she considered Lois's death as meaningless and/or trivial. If I were to list five reasons why I didn't like something, for example, reasons 1 and 2 might have equal or almost equal importance, but I had to make a choice as to which one was #1. This doesn't trivialize or diminish reason #2.

Ann, you are obviously passionate about what you believe in, and you normally express yourself very well. Therefore I assume that I am not misunderstanding when I see here what appears to be a strongly worded request as to what Catherine should or should not write.

As you've admitted, you've made a lot of comments about a story that you have only skimmed through very quickly. I can understand if you know that it is not to your tastes - as you can see from this thread, you are not alone in your aversion to most deathfics. But I think it is inappropriate for you to ask another author to avoid writing a story with a subject matter that you feel distasteful.

I don't write fanfic. I have tried - I have a 60+ page story on my hard disk that was started years ago for another fandom that will never see the light of day. There are a lot of factors that go into creating a story, and a cooperative muse seems to be one of them. I don't have that. So many of you do. And it is your right to write your story as you see fit, just as it is my right to choose whether or not to read it. I think these boundaries should be clear and obvious to all.

Kathy

Okay, Kathy, I was again out of line. You are right, I can't tell Catherine what or what not to write.

But the next time I think anyone is killing Lois just to explore Clark's feelings, I will still point out that I see the story just that way. Please note, however, that I have repeatedly said that I think there are definitely ways and reasons to kill Lois which I will not find gratuitous or exploiting. That said, I will always prefer it if she remains alive, but obviously I realize that writing a story where Lois dies can never be automatically wrong in itself.

Ann

Thank you, Kathy. That's exactly what I meant. I was describing how someone could use even the BoJ premise as long as the story didn't end as a deathfic--as an example of what my comfort zone encompasses.

I just got back from work to read these comments, and I was feeling sick at the thought that Catherine would think I was telling her how she should have written her story. Thank you, Catherine, for letting me know that that wasn't the case.

Now, I'll reiterate the point I made in my original post of the first page of this thread and retire from this discussion: I don't see a way to satisfactorily meet the needs of those who hate deathfic and meet the author's need for creative freedom, so all we can do is leave things the way they are.

I think ths is my issue with deathfic. I like hope. A lot. And I like happy endings. Okay, the follow might sound completely dumb, but what the hay: The first time I ever complained about happy endings was right before I saw Disney's Pocahontas. The complete butchering of history that that story was aside, when the hero and the heroine didn't live happily ever after in the end, I was crushed. The sequel only made it worse. She fell in love with someone else?! What?! That's not the Disney ending! I want my Disney ending. Alright I was seven okay, give me a break.

Now to bring this back to the point, there are some couples that are like a Disney ending for me was in that moment. Solid. Dependable. Full of life and possibility and smiles. So when soulmates die, I don't want to know about it. I don't even really want to know about it when they're seperated until they're old and gray, or when they're horribly and permanently scarred. No, I much rather see them when, for example, they go through a long and painful trial and wind up learning their lesson and loving each other more. Because you know what? I know that the world is a big, scary place. I know that people die and you run out of second chances and some monsters and nightmares are all too real. So, on principle, I understand and even support the "this is real life" argument. But that doesn't mean I have to read it or like it.