Lois & Clark Forums Forums Fan Fiction Fanfic Related Deathfic Debate- love 'em, loathe 'em, and everywhere in between...

I'm not a fan of deathfics and I try my hardest to avoid them in stories.

I understand that alot of people do what to read stories that deal with those emotions and the struggle to go on without that special other person. I'm not one of them but it's a matter of personal taste.

I like having a warning in place before I start reading, this way if I decide to go forward, I know that there's a major Wham coming my way.

Don't mind angst and plot twist where they can't seem to get it together until almost the end.

Maybe if the well written story came along, I'd be willing to give to read a deathfic a shot.

For the time being only happy endings will do.

You know, I can't believe I actually hit the "Post Reply" button on this topic. I really think we're just beating a dead horse here, going back and forth without accomplishing anything. At this moment, I'm not sure what I want to say, but I feel the need to chime in too.

Up until now, I had read the occasional deathfic. It wasn't my favorite because I enjoy the happy ending kind of stories. But I didn't discredit them because there are a lot of themes of stories I don't completely enjoy, like next generation stories. I have heard SOOO many good things about Nan's Home series, but it isn't really my cup of tea so I haven't read them yet.

I choose not to read stories I know I won't enjoy as much, but I will never tell anyone not to write them. We can't limit the kinds of stories that are written here. This should be a place of creative freedom. There are over a thousand people joined on these boards, and who knows how many others lurk around. There has to be a happy medium where we all respect each others opinions for liking/hating stories and respect each other's rights to write them.

Let me jump off my soap box now. I respect everyone's opinion on this subject, I really do. But we all come from different backgrounds and lifestyles so our likes and dislikes will be different. The only way to aviod any of this is to just refrain from reading something you think you won't enjoy, for whatever reason that may be.

After reading through everyone's arguments for and against deathfics, I think I have a new-found like for them. But only because most deathfics here are extremely well written and tell a good story, regardless of the sad ending.

I think I'm done. I'll just add this to the litany of posts already here in hopes of not being misinterpreted. I mean NO disrespect to anyone here.

~Kristen

I did it. Read all 100 replies before doing so myself, just to make sure that someone else hasn't already said what I've wanted to say. Actually, many people have said what I believe, so I promise not to repeat.

For the record, I am neutral about deathfic. For me, it's all about the story and the quality of the writing; is the death intrinsic to the story, is it handled realistically within characterizations, and does it make me think?

Too, I firmly believe to each his own, and if deathfic is not your thing, more power to you when you actively avoid it. I purposely avoid kidfics and next gen stories because they just don't float my boat, no matter how well they are written.

That being said, what I find more interesting is the comments about *why* people write deathfic and whether or not such reasons are valid. Especially this from Ann intrigued me:

To which I ask, so what's wrong with doing this? What's wrong with killing off Lois and/or Clark in order to explore the reaction and feelings of the other character? It seems to me that this is just as valid of a reason for killing off a character as any.

I would even argue that the writers of LnC the real TV show did this in the episode That Old Gang of Mine. Clark is "killed" by the gangsters and the show's viewers watched as Lois went through her grief over losing a good friend and potential love interest. The writers didn't have to kill off Clark. He could have let the bad guys go in order to keep his secret and caught them later, after he and Lois had left the gambling hall together. His fake death wasn't necessary to solve the A-plot in the end. The story as written took us full-circle, with an alive and well Clark at both beginning and end, with a Lois who never questioned such a miracle as her partner's resurrection.

But for Lois, Clark's death was real. The A-plot - Clark getting "shot" by gangsters - was a contrivance in order for the writers to be able to explore Lois's feelings about losing Clark and force her to face how much he'd come to mean to her, the B-plot. It also was used in order for Clark to face the metaphorical death of "Clark Kent" and grieve accordingly for his lost identity, forcing him to admit who in his life was real and important (Clark) and who was disposable (Superman). No foul in that.

In fact, the premise of this episode was the inspiration of my very first LnC fic. I wanted to explore what Lois's grief might have been like had Clark not been "revived" so quickly but had continued to be "dead". How deeply would she have been affected at that fairly early point in their relationship? Would she have been able to recover or would she have been irrevocably damaged emotionally, having felt she'd lost something so precious before she'd even had a chance to appreciate it? I found that idea fascinating, how it might feel to believe the person you were starting to love was dead, only to learn you might actually have a second chance. Because that "what if" generated a story, for me it's just as valid of a reason as anything else anyone else might come up with.

I don't think there is anything wrong with killing Lois and/or Clark simply because you want to explore the consequences. Granted, the resultant story might not be to some other people's tastes, as clearly demonstrated here. To which I would encourage those folks to run screaming in the opposite direction from such a story. However, others who don't hold such aversions might enjoy a fresh perspective.


Lynn

PS - I just remembered one other thing. I do take a small bit of offense at having the nfic stories I've written blanketly dismissed with the statement that they are "cheap attempts at soft porn." I admit that I have written one or two nFics with sex as a theme. But most of my nFics are nFics simply because of the inclusion of a few borderline words and/or phrases or because the theme is considered adult, and not in the sexual sense. Assuming an nFic story is automatically about sex is like assuming that all rated R films include nudity. Most rated R films are rated R for violence and/or language. Billy Elliot, one of the best movies I've seen, was rated R simply because the group of people in the story used the f word as part of their common speech. The story itself was about an 11 year old boy who wanted to be a ballet dancer. Not a sex scene in the entire film.


L.

Lynn, I have to tell you why the idea of killing Lois to explore Clark's feelings bother me so, when the opposite is not true in quite the same way. It is because I don't think of the ABC TV show as a self-contained universe, but rather I think of it as a part of a much, much larger Superman mythology. And in this Superman mythology, Superman is the one who can never really die. As long as there is a Superman mythology, there will also be a Superman. Although I have to admit that there does not absolutely have to be a Clark. It would be possible to destroy Superman's Clark identity and have him live on only in his superhero persona.

But there are no gurantees whatsoever that Lois will always be a part of this Superman myth. I can easily imagine DC comics eventually getting rid of Lois in order to give Clark - or Superman - a new love interest. Clark already has a new love interest in the smallville show, and the idea that Clark would make love to Lana is certainly something that never existed before that TV show. Who's to say that Lois could not be killed in the comics or in a future movie and be replaced by Lana as Clark's love interest?

I feel Lois's existence as Clark's love interest is honestly precarious. And I honestly want us FoLCs to defend it. When I see people killing Lois to explore Clark's feelings, then I feel that they, too, just like those people in charge of the wider Superman mythology, see Lois as a temporary character, an appendage to Superman rather than his equal partner. I do believe people outside the FoLCdom may want to get rid of Lois, and when FoLCs write death-of-Lois fics, I feel we are somehow encouraging those who want Clark to find somebody else.

I'll never be equally upset by a death-of-Clark fic, because I know there will never be a self-sustained Lois Lane mythology out there, where Clark could get killed so that people all over the world might take an honest interest in who will be Lois's new beau. Superman will never get killed just so that Lois will be permanently rid of him, but as I said, it wouldn't surprise me too much is someone in charge eventually decides that it's time for Superman to move on and for Lois to die, so that Superman won't have to betray her in order to take an interest in some other woman.

So, yes, I do feel that Lois is an endangered person, and I feel that we may actually contribute a little to her death in the wider world of the Superman mythology if death-of-Lois fics become popular here, and certainly if they become a lot more popular than death-of-Clark fics. Please don't think I'm asking for stories where Clark is killed. But I do think that we are encouraging something I truly hate, the idea that Lois is just an appendage, if it becomes natural for us to equal deathfics with death-of-Lois fics. Because that way I do think we are saying that Clark is the only one who really matters, and it is his life and feelings that should be explored.

Ann

Oh dear. Ann, I'm afraid I have to disagree with you again.

I do recognize that out in the big bad world - comics, movies, other TV-incarnations - there are people who want to dispense with Lois Lane. Whether or not that number is large, I cannot begin to say.

But I think you're looking at it from a perspective that many of us are not. Although there are definitely a number of people who follow Superman in all his different forms and incarnations, I think I'm safe in saying that the majority of FoLCs are here to this day primarily due to our love for the L&C TV series. So perhaps we're not thinking of how our actions could affect the Superman community at large.

How common are deathfics in this fandom, anyway? There are approx. 2700 stories on the Archive. If deathfics amounted to as much as 5%, that would be 135 stories. I haven't counted, but I doubt there are that many.

I can only speak for myself, but I don't anticipate a surge of deathfics to come in in the future. And I would certainly never expect them to become "popular".

Why? Well, just because of the nature of FoLCdom - a sub-fandom of the larger Superman phenomena, if you want to think of it as that. Yes, there are people open to reading deathfic (just as there are people opposed), but most of us are here because we loved the romance of Lois & Clark. We want the love story. So many stories are pre-relationship and pre-revelation, because as readers many of us love watching them fall in love, with variations, over and over again. The notion of them being together for the rest of their lives is one of the things we want celebrated. Yes, we may also want action plots, and heroic Superman feats, and varying levels of angst before the big payoff at the end, but we want them together. A few deathfics (no matter who dies) being submitted and receiving praise is not an indication that the fandom is undergoing a radical shift to the Dark Side, in my opinion.

Kathy

I think Ann may have a bit of a point in her concern about Lois as endangered in the larger world of the Superman mythos.

Certainly the makers of Smallville have written her out of the mythos in any any meaningful way, and thus, for many kids who have never read the comics or who can't relate to the Reeves movies, it's all about Lana.

And who knows how the new Superman film will treat Lois Lane?

Like all corporations, DC has publicists and market research people who explore questions like this as they plan future issues. This question about Lois, I gather from some of the interviews, does come up. So, If FoLCs, who are theoretically fans of Lois Lane as well as of Clark Kent, are quite comfortable marginalizing, and even killing Lois, then it's logical for DC to conclude they can do so too without much fuss.

If we don't care about the character, then who does?

Although many Folcs may not care at all about how the comics and movies go, I guess i do because it's all connected in some larger way, which I find hard to explain, to my feeling about the importance of both the character of Lois Lane and the relationship between her and Clark Kent. Guess I don't compartmentalize things too well - I tend to see everything as intertwined.

Nevertheless, that said, the issue of deathfic is clearly a lot more complex than just this one aspect.

c.

While searching for something else in Polls, I came across this .

Skimmed it over and, as it's a poll on attitudes to deathfic from roughly a year ago, found it very interesting. So thought I'd add it into the mix.

LabRat

Last time, I hope.

Let me say just one more thing about this. I NEVER SAID THIS!

I said I had only read a FEW n-fic things. I have NOT done an in-depth survey of that class of story, nor have I examined the entire archive. I did not identify any particular story NOR did I name any specific author. Nor did I intend to make any blanket statements about any genre. I wrote this in context of preferring or not preferring certain kinds of stories, specifically about people who feel betrayed if someone important (or anyone, for some) dies in the story. I was NOT dismissing an entire genre of story or author as "cheap" or unworthy of consideration as good writing. I was characterizing the FEW things I'd read (less than ten, closer to five) which had turned me off to n-fic. Please! I was only stating my preference.

Let me also sincerely apologize to those whom I have unintentionally offended. I am fully aware that there are a number of stories on that board which are well-written, and are n-fic only because they contain some scenes which step over the PG-13 line. I never had any intention of insulting anyone.

If you still feel you need to say something else to me on this subject, feel free to e-mail me. I do not intend to comment on this subject again on this board, let alone in this thread.

Thank you.

LabRat, about a year ago you said this about deathfic:
That was a year ago. I believe that since last December, there have been four deathfics, three of them Lois deathfics. There was one Tank ending, where Lois died and Clark didn't, and we don't know if that story will ever have another ending. Then there was, of course, Catherine's story. There has also been a story where Lois died in an accident, and neither Clark nor their children grieved too much over her death. The last story certainly resurrected Lois, but it left me with the strong feeling that Lois wasn't regarded as an important character, and that it would have been an inconvenience rather than a tragedy if she had remained dead.

There has also been one Clark deathfic, where Clark died of old age, hence of entirely natural causes. Alternatively, it may be seen as a story where Clark died because he had selflessly sacrificed a large part of his life to save Jimmy.

So we are talking about three stories since December where Lois is murdered, executed or killed by accident. In the last one she is resurrected but isn't treated as an important character. In the same time period we have one story where Clark has died of old age, and the whole story is a tribute to him.

I'm not too interested in how many deathfics there are in the Archive, by the way, though I may check one day. I'm much, much more interested in recent trends. For now, it seems to me that deathfics are definitely gaining popularity here and that the character to off is Lois.

Ann

Ann said" "I'm much, much more interested in recent trends. For now, it seems to me that deathfics are definitely gaining popularity here and that the character to off is Lois."

The scientist in me doth protest loudly! This is a common error... But I simply must point out that an occasional "blip" in the graph doesn't make a trend. Last year, we had several horrific hurricanes, but that does NOT mean that destructive hurricanes are on the rise, wane, or holding steady. We don't have the data yet. In five years, if the "trend" continues, THEN we can say that last season APPEARS to have been the START of a new trend. It's simply too soon to tell right now if last season was a blip or a trend.

I see this with standardized testing scores all the time. Two tests are done with students in grade X two or three years in a row. Then the school board beats their chest and makes announcements that show how much their changes are improving education. Based on what? Two data points, three at best. And to make matters worse, we have no idea how the two groups of students compare in terms of innate ability.

Data NEVER follows a smooth line on a graph. There are always little zig and zags, spikes and valleys. That's the way it works. So just because you see a little spike, there is no need to panic!

If we were to see numerous deathfic stories appearing each month on the archive, so that the monthly average increases for a year or two, then I'll agree that we might be seeing a trend. But I don't think you need to worry, Ann. My educated guess is that this is a random blip in the data. Happens all the time. It might even be followed with a period of NO deathfic. But that is less likely to get your attention, so you won't "notice" it and add it to your informal data set. It's called being human. We all do this, and it's the origin of many a superstition, I suspect.

And as a writer, I frankly don't want to be saddled with saving Lois or preserving the core characters or anything else. I want to write the story my muse and I conjure up. I want to write it well and make some sort of impact on the reader. I want to be creative, not write to please or change poll numbers.

And since fanfic writers write for the pleasure of it, I see no benefit of calling a writer on the carpet for not treating a particular character with "respect" in the view of a reader. I don't think it will change things and will only result in hurt feelings. I know that if someone wrote to me and said they hated how I wrote scene x or character y, I'd make NO effort to change what I'm doing. In fact, my stubborn side would be tempted to dig in my heels and do more of the same, but with greater intensitiy. (I'm a card-carrying member of the human race, and also have membership in the flaws club.)

Much better, I think to praise and recomend stories you LIKE and be quiet about the ones you don't. Science has proven that positive training is more effective anyways.

I just don't agree with the view that we have to write fanfic for the global benefits of the Superman legend. If we start doing that, we start quashing the very creativity that makes the fanfic so great. Let the writers write. If one doesn't like the outcome... hit the delete key.

Jackie

I think if you do look at all the fics over the years in the archive, you will find that premature Lois deathfics significantly outnumber Clark deathfics (as do "Lois as mere plot device" vs . "Clark as mere plot device" fics.) But regardless, Lois or Clark death-fics are very much a minority in the sum total.

Fair enough. The mbs has "an orginal fic" category to encourage writer's more creative endeavours. Nothing wrong with writing what you want at all, but perhaps it's not unreasonable to hope that a writer might respect the feelings of those who want only to read "Lois and Clark" fic? Isn't it possible to do both?

I'm less comfortable with the suggestion that we not be critical of what we read. Do we want to stifle discussion about style, plot, characterization, etc? The mbs would be a boring place were that to occur, not to mention we'd lose the opportunity to get critiques of our work.

With respect to the few stories i've written, I've always wanted to know if readers perceived my characters as "in character" and whether I've done right by them, if the style works, the plot logical, character motivation made sense, etc. If readers only gush (which of course is very wonderful ), then how would I ever know? Sometimes the criticsim of my stories has been rough, but I've learned from it and adjusted stories to try to take into account various concerns. (although not always )

Wow, TOC, that's a very interesting observation. And I would have to say I totally agree with it. Really - whether we like it or not - Lois is somewhat of an accessory in the entire Superman mythos. She's one of many women he's loved over the span of his existance, albeit the most enduring and arguably most well-loved one. But facing the facts, it is very true that Lois is not necessary for Superman to continue.

Which, if we are facing facts, is kind of just one of those "too bad for you" for all of us LnC fans, and even more so for those who've really taken Lois to heart and made her fundamental to the Superman story. The creators of Superman made no promises to anyone about anything other than to tell a story about an alien from another planet who comes to Earth and uses his unique powers for good. Whoever comes and goes out of Superman's life is simply icing on the proverbial cake and can be changed to suit the different tastes out there. It's like TV show producers who develop a beloved program which eventually goes off the air (*sob*The West Wing*sob*). We can be upset by it, but it's not our creation on the first place.

I can personally say that I am often frustrated by Smallville's perpetual insistence on shoving Lana Lang down viewers' throats as Clark's true love. I don't agree with it and wish to no end they'd make better use of Lois in the show. I'm so frustrated, in fact, I'm on the edge of not watching any longer. However, I also know - intellectually - that the show's creators can do whatever they want within the parameters of the world they've created as long as the basics of Superman remain the same.

That being said, I don't know that as fans of LnC:TNAoS we owe Lois the character anything other than portraying her truthfully based on how we have interpreted her character from what we individually garnered from the episodes. If we want to kill her off in order to write a particular story, is it really our responsibility to avoid doing so simply because we happen to like her maybe a bit more than those who never watched the show? Wouldn't, in fact, stories which show a Clark who is completely incapacitated by the loss of Lois do much in showing others how deeply Clark feels for her, how truly important she is to him, not simply another one of his many women? A Superman who can no longer function because he's lost something so fundamental as his life partner seems to validate the importance of that partner, proving to those who would view Lois as just an accessory that they are, indeed, wrong.

Too, I would say that in this fandom, or any fandom for that matter, stories reflect what the market will bear. If readers embrace deathfics - Lois and/or Clark's - then there is a market for such stories even if the readers profess to adore Lois (or Clark) and believe that she is the one and only woman for Clark. If all LnC:TNAoS fans abhorred deathfics in any form, then we could safely say that this is a fandom which doesn't see them as a viable expression of the show. My frustration with Smallville and my decision to stop watching is a good example. Perhaps if enough people do stop, the creators will figure out that they've pushed Superman into an arena where we no longer accept the story as appropriate for his premise.

You know, I've got to stop doing this. I just go on and on.
Lynn

But why do I have to avoid writing stories where Martha dies just because reader X detests that? As long as I write well, isn't it okay for me to explore that angle of Clark's character? Or do I have to avoid it because I'm contributing to a movement to go back to the days where the Kents died when Clark was still a young man? That's the point I'm trying to make: I don't think it's fair to call for fewer stories with plot A in them. It is perfectly fair to have readers choose not to read them.


It's one thing to ask for feedback. If the author wants that, I say that's great. But I object to the individual with a mission statement of pointing out each and every time a story kills off Martha in an "insensitive" way. In that case, I don't think it is really feedback to an author, but something else I can't figure out a name for.

And that, too, is different from someone saying "I FELT that Martha's death wasn't given enough attention. As a reader, I anticipated there would be more time spent showing us the immediate aftermath, including the funeral. That said, I really liked how you showed Jonathan handling the situation at the lawyer's office......"


In this example, we don't have an effort to show the writer "Where the writer went wrong" but an effort to convey to the writer the READING EXPERIENCE that ONE individual had. That reader also makes an effort to praise the parts that they did find satisfying. To me, this type of feedback is an entirely different thing. And while this type of feedback is fine and welcome by most writers, implying that a writer is contributing to the demise of Clark's parents in fandom is outside the bounds, in my opinion. I know that opinion is not shared by everyone and I respect that, too.

Again, you asked for that type of feedback, so the rules are different. And you were seeking out the experience and perceptions of the readers. And, I might add, you were not asking if the topic iteslf was okay to explore!

But in addition to the Constructive Criticism, isn't it also helpful to have someone point out where you handled a transition well, or provided enough description to place the writer in the scene? Why are only the "problems" worthy of attention? I think we can learn just as much by looking at what was done well. If there are two scenes with Jonathan, one at Martha's bedside, and another at the lawyer's office, isn't it just as helpful to hear how the dialogue worked in one case and use that as a model of what one should try for in the scene that wasn't perceived as you intended?

Likewise, if a reader finds certain types of story don't fit with his/her view of how fandom as a whole should be, why doesn't that reader just seek out and praise the "good stories" and let the rest collect dust? Is it really worth telling a writer that their topic choice is contributing to a backward movement in the mythology?

And I don't want this to imply that I am speaking only about a particular individual in this discussion. I'm not trying to pick on anyone or single anyone out. --hence my choice to make Martha my example! I just want to explain why I do not agree with the point of view of those who have stated they intend to point out these problems/concerns in every instance they find them. They are within their rights to do so, but I think it will only result in hurt feelings, less creativity, and fewer stories. I hope I'm wrong.

Jackie

Sorry, J., I worded my comment too vaguely. I was trying to avoid asking for a writer to let me (a reader) know what type of story I'm about to commit my time and emotions too. I certainly didn't mean you ought not to write what you want. Think i did say you should, in fact. ) Don't think anyone is saying don't wite deathfic if you want too.

You're right about positive criticism, of course - noting of smooth transitions, the citing of the use of evocative language, those example where the reader feels you got the character "spot on', or a gripping A plot, etc. That too is really helpful. (not to mention pleasing )

But since I'm not that strong a writer, I'd be pretty surprised if there weren't a few "offs" and i like to know about them.

c.

Jackie, I think when most people do give feedback, they do indeed make a point of saying what they like about the story, especially when they’re also going to mention something that didn’t work as well for them. I remember very few instances here where someone made a criticism of a story and didn’t also give praise to what he/she liked about it.

Regarding Ann’s comment about the recent stories posted, two of them I haven’t read yet – the earlier story of Catherine’s or the one where Clark dies, so I can’t comment to those at all.

I assume that you’re talking about “Away from the Sun” here. Yes, Sara killed off Lois in her Tank Ending, but that’s a common occurrence with Tank Endings. Death and destruction are the key phrases for the genre. Lois often dies. Often a good chunk of Metropolis is destroyed. Clark has died too, but admittedly not as often because of his invulnerability. There are a number of people who don’t like TEs, which is why we have a warning thread that is added to before they are posted. And do remember that Sara did post one other part after the Tank Ending, so Lois is still very much alive.

My interpretation of this story varies from yours, Ann. I can see plausible reasons for the level of grief that was portrayed that fit in nicely with show canon. I would not have characterized Lois’s “death” in this story as a trivialization of her character or a mere inconvenience.

If we all can’t agree on the dataset included in the study, we can’t agree on the results. At this point I’m still as unconvinced of a surplus of deathfic as Ann is convinced that there is a strong need to worry. We obviously just have to agree to disagree.

Kathy

Regarding deathfic warnings...

I don't know whether there are any other people who think like me, but personally, I don't want to see deathfic warnings, or any other kind of warning, in a story. To me, a warning works like a spoiler. If someone dies, I don't want to have been informed in advance. I want it to hit me as the shocking experience that death really is.

I don't mean to disrespect everyone who has an aversion to deathfic, and wants to be forewarned so as to avoid it. But I do believe that my own opinion should be respected as well. I thought that the WHAM warning thread was a perfect idea, and that it could include deathfic warnings as well - or maybe we could make a new, 'Deathfic Warning' thread.

Or, another thought - what about posting warnings etc. IN THE END of the story? So, if someone wants to be forewarned, all they have to do is scroll down. If not, they can just read on.

See ya,
AnnaBtG.

As a college composition instructor, Jackie, I tried to use the "positive feedback model" when I was commenting on students essays. What I discovered was that they continued to include the things I liked, but since I never commented on things to improve or correct, their essays never got any better. So then I added comments about things they could do to improve, and lo! Their essays got better. But while I didn't point out errors, those remained the same.

Finally, I turned to the model I currently use: explain what I liked about what the student did, follow that with suggestions to improve different parts of the essay, and then highlight errors in different colors (red for sentence errors like fragments, comma splices, or run-ons; blue for grammar errors in person, tense, case, or agreement; etc.). It seems to be the most effective way of helping students improve their writing that I have discovered in 20 years of practice.

My experience has been that people who have put effort into their writing assume it's okay--unless they are told otherwise. They are too close to the work to view it objectively and see the problems in it. Since none of them puts something out that they think is bad or wrong, their base assumption is that it is okay. Positive criticism encourages them to keep trying by acknowledging what they did well, but "negative" criticism (explaining what didn't work or could have worked better) helps them improve.

That said, I don't offer negative criticism on the boards because I don't feel it's my place. I may give the reader's reaction you mentioned, but that's about all. Similarly, it isn't my place to tell someone else what to write, whether deathfic, kidfic, next gen, or whatever.

BTW, Anna, I like the idea of a specific warning at the end of the story, which would work well on the archive. I have, after all, always flipped to the end of a book by a new author to make sure it ends well before I buy it. It just means that I would need to quit reading stories on the boards.

Ah, but we can use warning threads on the boards

See ya,
AnnaBtG.

Jackie, let me put it like this. Suppose that in most deathfics, the person who was killed was black. Or, say, Jewish. I think that if people noticed that they were preferentially killing the black or Jewish people, they'd probably feel uncomfortable about it and ask themselves why their "pattern of killing" was racially skewed. I believe that the next time they were about to kill a black or Jewish person, they'd pause and maybe ask themselves why it was always the same kind of people who died in their stories. What did that say about their own way of looking at blacks and non-blacks, Jews and non-Jews? Could it possibly mean that they didn't value black and Jewish people as much as they valued, say, non-Jewish white people?

I can't tell any of you people what to write. But if you LnC fanfic writers, most of whom are females anyway, staunchly defend your right to kill Lois, I really want you to ask yourself why you find it so satisfying to kill her. Why do you think it is more satisfying and rewarding to kill Lois than to kill Clark? Please understand that I'm not asking you to kill Clark. Don't ever get me wrong about that. But I do think it is a problem, even in the "fluffy" world of fanfic, if Lois and Clark deathfic becomes synonymous with death-of-Lois fic. Please, people. Why don't we see selective killing of women as a problem? Even in the fanfic world?

Let me ask you women out there to imagine the following situation. You have a boyfriend/fiancé/husband named Joe, and the two of you love one another very much. Now, you yourself are on your way home on a dark night, all alone. Suddenly, you can hear footsteps behind you. They are coming closer. You become convinced that you are being stalked by a killer. How would you react? Would you become extremely worried about your own safety? Would you feel very strongly that you want to survive? Or would you think that it will be all right for you to die, but it is going to be horrible for Joe to live on without you?

Would you, in other words, think that your own life is valuable in itself? Or is Joe's grief the only thing that really matters?

If you think that your own life is valuable, then please try to imagine, for a moment, that you yourself are the woman that you are about to kill off in your own fanfic story. It's really you dying there. Would you feel all right about dying, about being killed, if only you knew that Joe would grieve for you? Would his grief be a fair exchange for the loss of your own existence?

If you don't think so, then please think twice before you kill an important female character. Please think twice before you kill Lois.

Ann

I don't know that we can assume that. Though you have to admit, within their universe, her death is a lot more plausible than his. We can kill Superman, but it takes a lot of work, as any number of villains have found out to their peril That's just the nature of the characters. Lois is more vulnerable, in the ordinary run of things.

That said... have you seen the hundreds of TOGOM rewrites on the archive? I'd say writers positively relish Clark's death -- or at any rate, the effect that the news of his death has on Lois. Okay, so those probably don't count as "deathfic" since it's all faked, but... still. If we can't say writers want to kill Clark, I think we can certainly say a lot of them want to make Lois think that he's dead.

I'd venture to guess that the vast majority of us here want happy endings a lot of the time, where *neither* Lois nor Clark is dead at the end. Even if some people like spicy sausage for breakfast and others hate it, they can all still have strong cravings for pancakes with syrup

If that makes any sense! I think I must be hungry...

PJ