Lois & Clark Forums Forums Fan Fiction Fanfic Related What are the all-time LnC classics?

No, I assure you, it wasn’t aimed at LabRat. It was aimed at *everyone* - not just the
‘icons’. I’ll reword it. (LabRat actually read one of my fics and she was very encouraging with my fledgling attempt.) Sorry, if you thought I was trying to ‘blanket’ the old timers. I wasn’t. It’s just something that I’ve been very curious about. And LabRat, if you thought this was directed at you, I apologize - profusely.


Yes, they were.

No, I didn’t think you did, but I just wanted to make sure no one else thought that was what I meant.


Thanks. I’m glad I inspired you.

This is good to hear that so much of your feedback has been for new authors, Kathy.


I can certainly understand this.

Yeah, think back to that beta I asked you about. I emailed you again.

I guess I was thinking about trying to read fics that totally don't make sense because of multiple inconsistencies. (I’ve actually rarely seen that.) Most authors go back and re-read and re-read and re-read their fics, and they work hard on them. But I have a read a *very* few that don’t do that, and if you ask them a question about what they mean, then they are clueless because they don’t even know what they wrote. That’s the kind of fic I was talking about.


You are right in what you said, LabRat. I was just curious as to what was happening, and if this was ‘usual’, and if so, why. I suppose these answers have explained a lot.

I'm not sure everyone would agree with the above, Nancy. Even in the days when I read every story posted, I always opted for it being nicer not to say anything than to say something "bad". A lot of fanfic authors write simply for fun. Unless specifically requested, I avoid negative fdk, because I respect the feelings of those who are more sensitive to criticism and who write just to write. I wouldn't want to spoil their fun.

So, I'll admit that some newer authors didn't/don't get fdk from me, like some older authors. But that's out of kindness. I'm not going to say something "mean". I'm just going to pass on the stories in the future.

I do this. But as I mentioned before, it's really hard to hold my attention these days. I imagine it's even harder with those who are not into LnC anymore at all and, as Labrat said, stay mainly for the friendly atmosphere.

Some new authors get discouraged, pack up their words and leave writing without realising that it takes time to build up a reputation by "word of internet". The "trickle down effect" which may not work so well in reality is a very apt principle in fandoms.

My advice to a new author is: if you want to have people give good fdk to your stories, try reading their stories and sending them fdk. It's no fair expecting fdk when you fail to send any yourself. It's also a good way to get to know other people in the fandom.

Additionally, I can't overstate the importance of beta-reading for canon issues and especially for grammar. Nothing kills my fanfic buzz faster than a string of grammatical errors or blatant canon violation.

I feel for good authors who somehow get overlooked. That's really too bad, and I wish we could find a way to avoid it. I do know how it feels to have your work overlooked so I empathise. I still maintain that the burden of encouraging new authors to post is on the anonymous readers who don't feel moved to send fdk, not on those who do already. They suffer just as much as anyone when new authors stop writing, and they have the power to fix it.

I have. I have also left comments for several of those authors. I usually read a lot during work however and don't always leave comments because while they don't care if I read stories they frown upon forum posting. I will sneak FDK for a few people here and there though if they produced a story that really hit me or if I think it is a great story and no one is reviewing at all. There are however a few authors that are new that I have read and don't really care for on their writing style. Not to say that is the case if someone hasn't gotten FDK from me but I don't normally go about naming them so as to not offend them.

In other cases I think there are a lot of new authors who have a lot of potential but need a good BR or two to help keep them on track to refine a few things. They have great stories and thoughts but their writing needs a bit of polishing. However, it is not really my place to step forward especially since I can't offer my time as that BR (to many obligations already and I'm terrible with comma usage). That would be the only time I would personally suggest it to anyone. Plus, people seem a bit touchy about their writing and I never know if they would take it as a genuine suggestion to help them improve or an insult. This being said we have a lot of great new authors but I think some of them need some work before they are Kerth award material in my eyes. But... it isn't my eyes who decide. ^_~ I'm just a random person who popped up a few months ago.

EDIT: and to clarify the above, I think with a bit of work we have a ton of people who are Kerth worthy. All our authors are awesome though and talented wonderful people and I am left in awe of them all daily. ^_^

Anyway, enough rambling about that. I'm not sure if I have read any of yours Classicalla but I will make sure that I do that this week.

Yes, I do this. And I’ve gained a reader or two by doing so.


Yes, I wholeheartedly agree, Capes. Bad grammar is one of my biggest hang-ups. (And I remember a rather lively discussion with you over grammar and whether it’s: Kryptonite or kryptonite. Thanks for the fond memories…)

And yes, I suppose if authors are going to ignore canon then they need to tell you that. I suppose the author shouldn’t assume that the reader will know the author knows or doesn’t know whether or not this is canon.


Well, I hope you guys don’t think I did this because I feel overlooked. I get some wonderful feedback, and I appreciate all of it. It’s just that I’ve been watching when other new authors post, and I was wondering if this was the typical phenomenon.


Yes, anonymous readers need to post. I for one am still I embarrassed because I lurked so long. There are so many stories that I wished I had posted feedback on.


Oh, yes, you are right. There are some authors that I also don’t care about. And some that have had good stories and have had others that are not. (And by the way, the authors I mentioned truly are the ones that I thought of off the top of my head.)


Okay, have I thoroughly ruffled everybody's feathers now?

Sometimes I reply to threads without considering my words (or current sobriety). Tonight I told myself that I didn't need to chime in, that I would only end up upsetting someone (even if it's just myself). But I'm going to say a few words and then hopefully read, re-read and edit liberally before I hit "add reply".

Years ago I wrote in another ficdom. It had been going strong for at least three years before I got there. It went on long after I lost interest. I don't read any of those stories anymore, nor do I have a desire to do so. I have two good friends from that long-ago era of my life that I still keep in touch with but our conversations have long since ceased to mention anything related to the fanfic we wrote.

Those two friends of mine encouraged me in a little experiment all those years ago. You see, after about a year of posting and writing my darndest I had reached the point where I felt accepted by the overall community. Not the "icons", but I'll get into that in a minute. But, and this was especially true of my early days there, it was *very hard-won*.

The eternal question of newbies being overlooked by the "icons" existed there. My friends and I knew that the bias existed, even though we had all finally clawed out our little niche. So I wrote a story, as a "newbie". It was carefully crafted (and smutty as all get-out). I kept it short (only five pages printed out). I fully expected that it would *bomb* big time. After all, only two people knew the real identity of the author and they were just dying to see me fail (we were weird that way). None of the other people who followed my stories knew I had written it.

That story caused ripples and debates because everyone was certain that it couldn't have been written by a true "newbie". The furor over "who wrote it?" was almost as gratifying as the feedback I received for it (and somewhat insulting since the possibility that I might have written it was discounted early in the guessing game). I honestly received more feedback for that story than any other I had written (or would write) in that fandom. To this day, I still get the occasional e-mail about it. To my utter delight I even heard from an "icon" about the story (one who never wrote me about any of my others - and who I heard through the grapevine was *distressed* to learn she had inadvertently praised me).

What I learned from that experiment was that, in the end, it's the story that matters. Is it hard to get noticed as a newbie? Oh, hell YES! In this ficdom my first story had multiple parts that didn't even get *one* comment. (The Next Step PG version: parts 2-5 had 0 replies. Nfic version: parts 3-6 and 8-10 had 0 replies) Some of that was my fault - I didn't realize then that the way to garner feedback is to deliberately withhold the story. Maybe I would have given up on writing if I were doing this solely for the FDK. Like Caroline said so astutely - I *write* the stories for me, I *post* them for the FDK.

I am a terrible person because I know how much that FDK means and I still am lazy about replying. Mostly it's because there's very little time in my day that can be spent on fanfic and I usually end up using that to either write, beta or both. So I tend to leave feedback on the stories that I read as a beta. I keep meaning to be better and read more so that I can support the people who have been so lovely and supportive of me, but the time just slips away.

If you're new and you're discouraged I can only offer my heartfelt hope that you'll continue writing and posting. I know it's a daunting thing to post a story. I still feel nauseated each time I post something (other than cheeky replies like this). Like Nancy said, just getting a smiley face can make your entire day. It's so nice to realize that there was someone else on the other side of the computer monitor who read your words and cared enough to take the time to reply. And, if they don't reply, or only a couple of people reply (as with my first story) just keep going. Write it for you. Get a beta. I put a plea for a beta out there when I was writing my first story and.... <crickets chirping> I finally had to start e-mailing others who were also looking for a beta before someone finally took pity on me.

My biggest piece of advice would be to write an nfic story. There are so many authors who post on the G side that it seems like everyone tends to get lost in the shuffle.

And now I've used up all my time for tonight. I should probably go back and re-read this but I'm too tired to see straight anymore. I hope I haven't upset or offended anyone - that was never my intent. This is such a wonderful little corner of the web and I count myself lucky to have found it.

Hehe… I do remember something about harshin’ my buzz.

Sue, as always, what you said was brilliant.

Sue, I enjoyed hearing about your fandom experiences, which were much like mine in the HP fandom (except that our BNA's - at least in my ship - weren't so catty, thankfully, and were actually quite kind and encouraging once one worked up the courage to get to know them). But I'd gone from a fandom where I was a decent-sized fish in a teeny tiny pond to HP, where I was...plankton, basically. With my first story there, I wrote my little heart out and had eight reviews at the end of the fourth chapter. That's pretty hard to do in a fandom that size. It was incredibly humbling, but I kept writing, and kept writing, 20-something chapters worth, and the story eventually did catch on and develop a following. With the next story, it was easier, and the one after that, easier still. It just sometimes takes a while.

Nancy,

I do see what you and Capes are getting at here, but the word "need" concerns me a little. There have always been anonymous readers of fan fiction and there always will be. If someone wants to read my stories and doesn't feel comfortable commenting, that's perfectly fine with me. I don't think the fact that I choose to write and post fan fiction should confer an obligation on someone else, especially if it's an obligation that for whatever reason makes them uncomfortable. There must have been a reason you lurked for nearly a decade. It might have been lack of time or shyness or a slow internet connection - I don't know you well enough to know - but the fact that you've now overcome whatever it was doesn't necessarily put everyone else in the same boat. Yes, it is lovely when someone de-lurks and lets me know he or she is following something I've written. Gives me a little thrill every single time. But I don't want someone making him or herself uncomfortable over it.

And I'm going to shut up now and go back to writing, which has kind of fallen to the wayside these last few days.

Best,

Caroline

Yeah, I'm afraid I don't reply as often as I could. Also, when I do, and this is just a note to the writers, I don't usually quote, but that's because I'm too lazy to use the quote thing for as many lines as I'd quote, so I usually just make quick comments about the story.

As far a s anonymous readers go, if you enjoyed something about the story, just post a quick message about it. The writers probably enjoy FDK as much from new posters as from the regulars.

Just catching up here with the December posts - so many interesting points.

Coming from the POV of a long time FoLC (think my first story was posted in 1998 or 1999), but definitely not one of the icons, I'm finding something paradoxical and ironic in the gist of these observations.

It seems all fandoms, based on what Sue has experienced elsewhere and what has happened in FoLCdom over the years, produce, at some times, in-groups and out-groups. Not sure why that happens, but it does, although those who are in the in-group always deny that there is an in-group while those who are not "in", ask the question, "So why do I feel like chopped liver then?" (sounds a tad Catch 22 ish, I know )

So here we go again, this time the newbies/icons aspect being an added twist.

My thought, though, is that *now* I am a newbie. It occurred to me, as I read through the December part of this thread, that nearly all of the people who now post regularly in the fanfic & fanfic related folders have never, as far as I know, read my stories and so were I ever to manage to write again, I'd be writing as a new author.

So that makes me a newbie.

Also wanted to second the points made about "time" to read and comment.

Also, there's the whole issue of "genre preference" that influences reading and feedback, too. (e.g. Will Tank ever read a long fic that has kids in it??? )

c.

Ican't say I've read all your stories, Carol, but I did just read Yesterday, Upon the Stair today and my thought as I finished was, were it not for copyrights and all, you could have turned that into a stand-alone novel (you'd have to add a bit of background) and gotten money out of it. Wonderful mix between regular LnC action and that philosophical touch which adds some depth. Good job.

Anyway, the reason I mentioned that is that I started reading LnC fanfic only in the last year or so, and starting posting here only about 5 months ago. So I'm certainly a newbie, but I've been reading as much as I can to get a reference point for the discussions. I've probably read over 50% of the shorter fics, and 40-50% of the longer ones.

I don't feel as though there's any in-group here. I don't know most of you as well you know each other, but in discussions, there seems to be a feel of equality.

Woody, you've made my day ! Thank-you.

I agree with you - there's been quite a change in these boards in the last year, I think, and it's due to all those people who have called themselves "newbies" - there's a respect for a diversity of opinion and certainly some outstanding new fics.

That's quite a lot of reading you've done, btw.

c.

Almost sounds as if that respect didn't exist last year, Carol.

I'm just back from a long hiatus from all things online, and I'm delighted to find the same friendly atmosphere here that I unwillingly left (because work got in the way :p )

The thing is, I'm not sure whether I'm considered an old-timer or not, or whether I'm part of what you call the "in-crowd", but I know I used to be a newbie, just like everyone else. And when I was a newbie, the fanfic "icons" of that time welcomed me with open arms, although they didn't know me at all. They were very encouraging and helpful, and I truly appreciated that. That's why I don't really understand the concept of in-crowd being exclusive. I never felt things were like that here. Quite the opposite.

Just my 2 cents' worth.

Kaethel (old newbie... new oldie...)

Wow, it's interesting how this thread has morphed.

Sad to say, in the past it has been hard for me to read new authors. Nothing against anyone, but I was burned a few times by authors who never finished their stories for one reason or another, or for new authors that could have seriously benefited from a beta. So much that I was wincing and couldn't read more than a paragraph. After that, I depended on word of mouth to decide if I should read a new author. And, of course, the Kerth nomination list.

I apologize to all of those authors.

In the past year or so, though, I've fallen into the same category as Labrat. My attention has wandered on to other fandoms. Even there, I'm not reading as voraciously as I have in the past. (Yeah, being burned here is NOTHING compared to being burned in a new fandom that doesn't have the respect for rules that we have here.) I'm finding that in both fandoms, I'm following a handful of authors whom I have read in the past and enjoyed their stories, and are still posting. I also find myself reading older stories that I read years ago and enjoyed very much. (Reasons why I totally love the guess the fic threads)

Back when I was new (oh how many years ago that was), I found that all of the icons were very friendly, and welcomed people with open arms. When I first hopped on IRC, I was amazed at just how friendly they were, and down to earth, especially with new people coming in going "OMG, I'm actually talking to <author>!" Sadly, the hallowed halls ring with silence as people move on, but I'm still seeing this wonderful friendly atmosphere continue on the boards. *pets fandom*

*I* don't know that they do. I think I probably know most of the icons/old timers, and I can't think of one who has a deliberate policy of not reading newer authors. They might read and not comment, but that's a different thing.

The other thing I wanted to say touches on a comment someone said about the next generation of authors and readers. It's been lovely to watch the next generation arrive on the boards, post and read stories, and strike up friendships. You can see the evidence of those friendships in the way people interact with each other on the boards, and I think that's just wonderful. To think that these boards may have contributed towards bringing people together who might not otherwise have met makes me very proud.

One last thing. Sue described her experiment in anonymous writing. We did a similar thing here a while back, and it was great fun and quite interesting. So far as I remember, there were certain rules on story content that we all had to follow, and then the stories were all posted anonymously and people had to try and guess who wrote what. I don't remember the results exactly, but I'm pretty certain there was a lot of incorrect guesswork going on, and that some of the guesses were for authors who hadn't even written a story. Of course, this doesn't prove or disprove the issue of newbie-dom, but it did show that author style is a tricky thing to spot.

Yvonne

Okay, I've been reading this thread for the past few days - just glancing at snippets really - and said I was totally going to keep my mouth shut and my opinions to myself... but, well... here I am.

I personally have to say that if it weren't for several of the oldie/icons here, that I might never have posted my first story.

I've "officially" been here since March, although I lurked here since January, and I still very much consider myself to be a "newbie" . While I lurked, I watched, read, and observed... until I finally thought I might give it a shot.

But I knew there was no way I was going to post anything unbeta'd. I managed to plead my case with one of those people I would consider to be an 'icon' to beta my very first story. I had tried soliciting a beta without any success, and was getting downheartened. I liked this author's fics and thought she was a real sweetheart, so I begged her to read for me... and she did.

*cough*thankyounan*cough*

In the meantime, I also was blessed to pick Sue up as a beta reader (actually she saw my original plea and volunteered - poor thing ). Little did I know at the time just what I had inadvertently stumbled upon. Ahh, the joys of 'dumb luck'.

But anyway, back on subject. My first story was short, but the fdk I received on it - both from oldies and newbies - encouraged me to continue. Then with my next story, which was considerably longer, I actually got unsolicited comments from two of the "oldies" (thank you Labby and Pam) the comments were encouraging... but they also explained how busy they were and that they might not have time to follow the story.

I think that is where a lot of the problem lies - because of RL issues I would say that most of us don't have the kind of time it takes to follow every story that's being posted - even if we want to.

I know I sure don't. I'm beta reading for 4 different people, and I have two muses sitting on my shoulders vying for attention (writing and vidding). Between that and RL stuff going on, I find very little time to read. I try to catch the vignettes, because I know I have time for those, and every so often I start a multi-part story, if it intrigues me. That's nothing against any of the old or new authors out there. It's simply due to a lack of time. I don't look for stories based on whether the author is an oldie or newbie. I look for stories based on what the story is about. One longer story I happen to be following now is (I believe) a new author's first story posted on these boards. I took a chance on it and was hooked.

I do try to leave fdk when I can. If you've written a story (or more than one) and I haven't commented, or have yet to do so, I'm deeply apologetic. One day I'll run out of things to write or create and I'll have oodles of time to get caught up on everyone else's stuff.

But please don't ever stop writing or creating! That's what makes this place so wonderful. The diversity of creative works and the warm, friendly atmosphere.

I, for one, feel so fortunate to call this place "home" for my creative outlet. I couldn't have found a better fandom to have landed in and put down roots in.

Okay, I'm shutting up now...

-- MR

Think that's a bit unfair, K.

My point was about the new energy and interest the so called "newbies' have brought to the boards and how that's affected things. There's been a revitalization, imo. And also, because of that, how oldies like me are now newbies.

c.

Absolutely! As the 'old group' began to move on - almost en masse, which was a tad unfortunate - there was a very short period when things went very quiet and almost died. Then, along came a new group - almost en masse <G> - and it's been a real pleasure to watch them have the same fun we did. To see them revitalise the forum, discover and explore the show as we once did, all of it fresh and new to them.

In particular, I've enjoyed the fact that there have been interesting discussions on the show in the LNC thread, again. A couple of you mentioned that there are few discussion threads to match those of the old days. But what's stopping you from starting some? I'd definitely like to see more in that vein.

Same thing with challenges. It's been terrific to see that folder explode over recent months with so many fresh ideas. And, btw, if you liked a challenge from the old days, there's no rule to say you can't bring it back up. Just credit the original challenger. With such an influx of new authors on the forum, old challenges can take on a whole new lease of life when explored from a new perspective.

LabRat

Karen said:

Just couldn't resist this one. I did that. I tried IRC in 2002, had my own "omg I'm talking to..." Anyway, I had a heart attack and didn't try IRC again til 2003. And looking back now, I can easily say, it was just Pam Jernigan, get a grip, girl! But I think the point I've learned over the years is that all of these 'icons'...well, they all put on pants one leg a time same as we do! And trust me, if there's an in-crowd, I missed the gathering! I've been in the out-crowd since the third grade; I'm usually more up on these things.

And Carol made my comment of the day:
Ok I have to admit, back in the 'peak' if we're going to talk about peaks, I knew when I got feedback, it was going to be the same people. They knew what kind of story I was going to write before they even opened the thread. And now I talk to people, and it's like, "Well are you going to nfic this?" Errr no, that's not really my area... "Sounds like a two-parter here!" Errr...welll... I'm just waiting for someone to email me and finally say, "Well what *do* you write?" But honestly, I've loved every minute of the new people. It's fun to pick up a new reader or two along the way! And even though my own hey-dey is hitting a low right now, I'd swear I've never seen so much enthusiasm from other people, and it's one of the reasons why I still nose around even if I stay fanfic'ed out.

JD

I've only posted a few short vignettes and I don't really consider myself a fanfic writer. Sometimes I just have an idea and need to get it down on paper, but it's usually very short. I can't imagine sitting down and plotting a multi-part story (but never say never ).

I was just blown away by the feedback that my vignettes generated, and many of the comments came from these so-called "icons." So I can't say that I feel that I wasn't given a chance by the people who've been around this boards for a long time.

I didn’t mean this word in such a way as to confer the suggestion of an obligation. It would be nice if they posted.


Shyness to the extreme. (As if anyone would believe that now since I have a big mouth.)


Bingo. You got it, CC. (Yes, I know. Flog me now. But like I said, I’ve been lurking a looonnnnggg time.) I’m not so sure there is such a feeling of an in-group these days, though. I used to have those feelings a lot more. (And that may have been one of the reasons I lurked for so long. I felt I couldn’t possibly be accepted, but that was from my own short comings.) And then as I read more on this thread I see that CC has mirrored my words:

I don’t particularly think CC meant that they weren’t friendly before, I think she meant more that they might be friendlier now , Kaethel. (And darn it all if I could get that comma to go in the right place. Sorry.) Remember that there were reasons that the boards split. (Okay, slap me now.)


Yeah, he’d throw ‘em all into a pool of magma or some such with no redemption.

I believe I read The Red Skirt, CC. And Yesterday Upon the Stair is on my ‘list’. It comes highly recommended.


There are lots of vignettes, too, Karen. But what do you mean, ‘word of mouth’. Do you mean the IRC?


I never meant to insinuate that it was done on purpose (or not always, anyway). And besides you post on newbies, Yvonne. (And it’s very much appreciated, and I’d give a bet to say that I’m not the only one that thinks so.)


Interesting, huh? Hmmm…. maybe that should be done again. But maybe somebody ought to do that and not tell anybody. (Has that ever been done?)


Yes, so do I, DJ. But like I said, I’ve been watching this for a while, and this is not the trend I see happening from most folks. And yes, I guess a lot of this is based on friendship. If we hadn’t written a fic together, I’m not sure I would have read one of your fics back in in the summer. (And I would have been missing out on a lot.) I’ve since changed my tactics. I don’t just look for the fics with authors that I recognize. Unfortunately, I’ve read a couple of stories that have caused me not to return to that author, and I shouldn’t do that either since every story is different. (I hear I’m missing a good story because of that, and I’m going to give it another try.)


Yes, DJ, I realize that you are busy, but you have actually left me feedback… (Thanks)


You may actually have just answered all of this LabRat. So why did the oldies move on - almost en masse? Was part of that because the boards split? (I suspect that it was.)


Weellll….. (Does this count?)


One thing I want to say is that when I started all this, I was NOT begging for feedback. I think some folks have thought that, but I think I get pretty decent feedback. I truly wanted to know why it seemed that for the most part (not always) newbies weren’t getting much feedback. I for one appreciate being told that someone doesn’t want to read my story and why. (And I have been told that by folks.) I guess not everyone would want to be told that, though.

Thanks for putting up with my ramblings, guys.