Lois & Clark Forums Forums General Discussion Off Topic Attn: Americans!

See now that warning, though understood, doesn't sit well with me, because it's not fair to stifle my joy because others are not happy with the turn out, especially as I merely stated the factual popular count. I'll give you that the "whoohoo" may have been over the top, but again, I shouldn't have to be cautiously PC because others are not as happy.

If I'd won a million dollars I'd be just as joyous in my financial security as I am in this outcome. I wouldn't appreciate being stifled for celebrating my million, so this nudge to curb my enthusiasm isn't very appreciated either. It's not like I was rudely gloating or anything.

TEEEEEEEEJ

See, that, to me, is gloating. I understand you're happy. Thrilled, even. But a lot of us are really upset. I personally am baffled as to why things went the way they did.

If you won a million dollars, no one would be telling you not to be happy about it. If we all *lost* a million dollars and you won, then we might get sick of hearing about it <g>. All we're asking for is some sensitivity that a large number of people feel very differently than you do and are disturbed by the outcome of this election.

Kaylle

TJ, emotions are high on both sides. Some people are very happy. Some people are very upset. Restraint is called for on both sides.

Just as those who are upset need to refrain from hurting or offending people by posting here about how upset they are, those who are happy need to show a similar consideration.

Celebrate or vent amongst your friends, but please try to keep things calm in places like the boards, where both groups meet.

Paul

Sorry, guys, this is a bit off topic (the topic being the Electoral College), but I just had to answer:

No, actually I pay more now.

Believe me, I've done the math. When I first filled out a PR tax return, I was flabbergasted at how high the taxes were. I did a hypothetical, figuring my same income and deductions, calculating federal, NY state and city taxes. My local Puerto Rican taxes were higher than all three of these together.

And now, there is a new federal "Alternate Minimum Tax", which the federal gov't is making me pay *over and above* the Puerto Rican taxes I'm already paying!

Well, as US citizens, I should hope Puerto Ricans get the protection and benefits of the US constitution. And yeah, it counts for a lot.

Actually, you could ask the residents of Washington DC the same question.

I'm not sure what you mean by "assuming overhead". There is a fear that becoming a state would mean paying federal taxes in addition to the PR taxes. People who don't understand how high PR taxes are tend to think, "Well, *I* pay both state and federal taxes, so why shouldn't they?" You really have to understand just how high PR taxes are in order to understand why people fear adding federal tax on top of them.

I personally believe that if PR were a state, local taxes would go down proportionately. Others disagree.

The point of my original post, however, was not whether PR should become a state or not, but rather whether I would like to eliminate the Electoral College, so that I could vote. I would!

- Vicki

TJ,

The thing about you winning, and feeling great, is that there are others around here that have lost and feel lousy. If Kerry had won, would you like them rubbing your face in it? The admin position is that we're all friends here, political beliefs notwithstanding, and friends try to be considerate of each others' feelings.

PJ

In both '93 and '98 the referendum failed to pass based upon the perception that it would cost too much. So, yeah, you and I are on the same page. The people fear the taxes.

As for AMT, let's just say it's a blessing and a curse--you are blessed that you earn a good living; and you are cursed that you aren't in the same league as a Rockefeller. I learned long ago that if you earn it, you pay it...because the alternative isn't pretty. And at least it beats the UK--my counterparts in the UK always had whopping tax bills and made less than I for the same sales. So....as Dr. Wayne Dyer says, 'if you change the way you look at things, what you look at changes.'

Sherry

LOL! No, actually I am very blessed, and I do make a good living, otherwise I wouldn't have to pay the AMT in the first place.

The thing is, the AMT is supposed to be a tax imposed on people making a fair amount of money who have somehow managed to find all sorts of loop-holes and tax shelters, and thus ended up not paying any taxes at all. In my case, the reason I'm not paying federal taxes isn't because I've found some sort of tax shelter, it's because my local tax debt is absurd!

Regardless, it doesn't change my main point. I'm paying taxes, but I can't vote.

- Vicki (who is usually a fairly up-beat sort of person, but gets incredibly grumpy on Apr.15 every year, and on Nov.2 every four years)

I don't think I have a right to actually say something here since I don't live in US and I'm not an American citizen but try to live in a country where all you heard from the past month or so was explainations about US voting system It's funny to think that Brazil just had Mayor elections but as soon as it finished all you could see was news about US election.

I don't really want to say what works and what doesn't work in US but I can say what works in my country. I think you all know how huge Brazil is and our voting system doesn't have a EC. All Brazilians have the same power to decide who is going to be the next President, Mayor, whatever. It doesn't matter that São Paulo, for example, has more people living there than in Porto Alegre. My vote as a resident from Porto Alegre means as much as a vote from a resident from São Paulo. What counts is the number each candidate gets in the popular election. I didn't vote for Lula, for example but he won and it was fair because he got more votes but all votes counted in the end (even if my candidate didn't win ). It's hard for me to think why this wouldn't work in other countries like US. We do have differences in the size of our States as well but that doesn't influence which candidate is going to win. It sounds much fair to me than having an EC.

As for the way you vote there Brazil should send you some electronic vote machines j/k I waited 1 minute to vote for Mayor and my city is huge

All I wish is peace for the world but I'm afraid about what's going to happen now

Raquel (who is going to hide now because she didn't want to give people a boring lesson about Brazil voting system )

Me neither Quel, but... we try to give our two cents here.

she´s right. i live in rio de janeiro which is way bigger than her state and her vote counts just like mine. One men, one vote. Well, in this case, one woman, one vote.


i voted for him! And he won! But I like the other candidate too. Both wanted the best for our country.

the electronic system of brazil consists in a machine on each section that carries a diskette. the president of the section authorizes u by the means of a password to vote only once. You press ur candidate number and confirm. You voter's registration card returns to u after that.

After 5pm, the diskettes are sealed and they go to the Federal agency to be inserted on a computer and the votes are counted. the information goes to a mainframe and at night we all know who was elected, even in national elections.

It is not perfect, but we are proud that this system seems to be (up to now) flawless and fast. We do hope the Americans and the Europeans that came to learn about our system can do the same in other countries. at least the tension would be released soon and people would know who won faster.

Peace is all we want, but sometimes people dont go on straight lines... they take the curves.

I just hope we all find the way out... together.

MDL. (who will now hide with Quel. )

Sounds like a good system you've got going there in Brazil One question -- if, God forbid, some of the diskettes lost data for some reason, is there a paper trail that can be re-counted? We've been talking a lot in the States about methods of voting.

I like the way my area does it -- we get a cardstock paper ballot & special pens. There are broken arrows next to each choice; you draw a line to connect the arrows for the candidate of your choice. Once we're doing marking the ballot (in the privacy of a booth), it gets fed into an optical scanner, and tallied that way, but the original ballots are kept, too. Last week, our polling place was packed (for early voting, they only open a few locations) even with about a dozen booths set up. So they set out folding tables with pens and doubled their capacity for voters. The tables didn't have the privacy of the booths, but if you wanted a booth you could wait a little longer to get one; I didn't really care. Anyway, it usually goes very smoothly, once they verify your registration.

PJ

I'm a bit confused. Is your registration card actually in the machine when you press your candidate number? Wouldn't there be a risk that the machine was registering who voted for whom then?

Pam asked: I was wondering the same thing.

Oh, and I'm glad you both decided to post here, Quel and MDL, even if you aren't Americans. Especially since you aren't Americans. I think it is interesting to read about how voting is done in other countries!

- Vicki

Looking at the electoral college system from the outside, it appears to operate, broadly speaking, like our constituency system. However, our constituency system sort of makes sense because it is designed to choose people to represent the local populace at parliament, rather than to choose a single person to head the entire country. Surely if you're selecting a single person for that role, then every vote cast should carry equal weight?

Yvonne

Well, Yvonne, the Parlimentary style government seems very strange to me <g> (I vote for local representatives *and* president) but obviously it works, since it's used in lots of places around the world.

And I agree with Vicki, it's really interesting to hear how things are done elsewhere in the world. Who says L&C fandom isn't educational?

PJ

Okay, Vicki and Pam I can answer your questions.

First about the machines. After the voting process is done the electronic voting machine prints 5 copies of the Voting Bulletin with the final result of that electoral section and they are signed by the Electoral Judge, Party Members and Board Members (all sections do the same thing). It's also created a disk that is taken to the Voting Center for the final votes to be counted. This disk is protected against reading because just the Central Computer can read it so there is no way it can have its information changed or it can be infected by a virus. Fraud is practically impossible. (I found this in a Brazilian site <g>)

As for losing data well all voting machines are tested and tested before the voting process starts and they are pretty safe. We're using this system since 2000 and nothing happened so far. When something happens is usually before the voting process starts and they can substitute the machine or get back to the old paper system.

As for the voting ID when we arrive in our section to vote the Board Member gets our voting ID and make us sign a paper. After that he/she digits our ID number so the voting machine can be free for us to vote. The vote is secret and when we're done the Board Member gives us our ID back.

I hope that could answer your questions well. I know it can be a little confusing but then which voting system is not confusing?

Raquel (who has faith in our voting system and is glad that we can vote and know the results so fast )

I posted a comment on the other thread. I hope you read it.

I do not see any reason for anyone to gloat. The campaign left this country even more polarized than it was 4 years ago. I was shocked by the lies and deceit, stunningly brutal dirty tricks, and fear-mongering. The campaign was conducted totally without honor; in fact it seemed as though some people would say or do anything to win.

I only hope that both sides of the aisle will one day remember that the American people need them to work together for all Americans instead of pushing through a narrow agenda that only benefits a group of special interests and a select few, if for no other reason than because if the pendulum does not swing back to the center, I fear we have seen the beginning of the end.

The boards administrators and moderators have been keeping an eye on these threads, for obvious reasons. While I'm happy to say that for the most part discussion has been courteous and respectful of other members' feelings, at the same time we're conscious that this topic is one on which feelings run very high indeed. And equally we're conscious that, actually, people tend to come to these boards to get away from real life, including politics.

So, while we're not intending to close down either thread, we'd just ask people to consider now whether it's time to take political discussions to forums specifically created for them. That doesn't include questions about processes; I, for one, have found the posts on that topic fascinating and informative. However, I suspect some people would now like to say goodbye to the 'Yay! Bush won!' and 'I'm so depressed' posts. It's not as if there isn't lots of other stuff to talk about!


Wendy
Forum co-moderator

Having reread your post, Wendy, I'm still not sure ... are you closing this thread down now, or is it still open for discussion?
I, too, have been finding it very informative.

cc m

I don't think Wendy means she's closing this thread. That read more like a yellow light to me. Use caution if you're still here and kicking.

(And incidentally, for those of you who *are* sick of these discussions, and I so don't blame you, and do come here to escape all this, erm...don't read any further, ok? Go read Tank's very excellent fic in progress. I understand completely. I'm nearly done, myself.)

Ok, I swear, with the yellow light firmly in my field of vision:

I am just fed up with campaigns in general.

Were they always like this? I want to know.

I listened to the ads for my local elected officials on the radio- complete with ominous creepy music and a grim voice intoning all the ways Whoever is going to Ruin my home town Forever if elected...

In the political realm, it isn't enough, apparently, to say 'here is where we disagree.' You have to tear the other candidate down completely, make them look nearly criminal. So much so I find myself wondering, "How on earth did Whoever get elected in the first place, if s/he is in league with Axe-Murderers??"

I find that ridiculous. And so many I know just find it exhausting, so they tune out completely. It's hard work to shift through and find the actual ideas.

I want a race between opponents that just tells me how Whoever and Whomever think on the issues.

The end. Let me take it from there.

Don't tell me the sky is going to fall, the sun is going to turn to blood, if I cast my ballot for one over the other. And most especially, don't tell me at the end of a long, bloody campaign season, "Whoever ran a good race. Is of noble characer. Has been an asset for your home town..." Because how am I going to believe that when for the last six weeks I heard nothing but dire predictions of swarms of locust if I let that person get elected?

After election years such as this one and the previous, we could easily forget there is common ground.

But there is. It's buried underneath all the noise. We're are living proof of that. Unless we live in a compound, most of us live and work among people who are not completely like-minded. We understand that and get along fine. We've done well on these boards with issues that are raw and potentially explosive, and we've shown a maturity our elected officials seem to lack.

I'm tired of the division. I'm tired of those who work on both sides to make it deeper. Who see winning as justifying any means.

There are always going to be differences. That's who we are. There will always be issues on which we are never going to agree. Since that's a given, let's turn our attention to what we have in common. To what we can compromise on, reach a middle ground, rather than this no-holds-barred, take-no-prisoners approach to governing and being governed.

That would be a revolution of its own.


CC- pushing soapbox back under desk, removing preach-y halo...checking that yellow light.

Incidently, the Whoever of the creepy music did get elected, and thus far our town hasn't fallen into the river. I'll keep you updated, though, just in case.

Thanks for the explanation, Quel! That sounds like a very good system.

I must admit I'm still suspicious about the fact that your voter ID number is punched into the machine immediately before you vote. It just seems to me that it would be too easy to figure out, then, just who voted for whom. (Maybe I've seen too many "Conspiracy Theory"-type movies!! ha ha)

Here in PR, we vote with paper ballots, which are then hand-counted. The good part is, when there is doubt, it can always be re-counted and verified. The bad part, of course, is it takes a long time to get the final results.

- Vicki

edited to add: CC, I see you were posting as I was. I just read your post and I agree 100%. Just tell me how each candidate feels about the issues and let me decide. (If you think your political ads are bad, you should see ours! Each side goes scrounging through the archives looking for pictures of their opponent picking his nose, or caught by the camera just at the moment his eyes had blinked shut, or making a goofy face right before a sneeze or what-have-you. I guess they figure if they make him look dorky enough, no one will vote for him! )

Wish I'd looked in on this topic a few days ago. My son registered in Cleveland, went to vote at his polling place near CWRU. Like many others there, he was challenged and given a provisional ballot, which was probably never counted since Kerry conceded. Arrg.

His name was not on the list as having registered. He said the same thing happened to many students he knows.

So much for getting the vote out in Ohio!

LaurieD moving on