Lois & Clark Forums Forums General Discussion Off Topic Harry Potter 6: SPOILERS!!!!!

Surprisingly enough, I do know this one. <g> Not JK's decision of course, but, as always, the American publishers. Who, like many American TPTB, thought that US readers would be too dumb to know what a Philosopher was and that Sorcerer would be much more easy to understand.

They really do underestimate you guys a lot, don't they?


LabRat

Suprisingly enough, as I understand it, that's the age group they are written for

I have a friend who teaches 4-5 year olds, she was absolutely livid that some of her kids' parents had taken them to see the films. They had come back, understandably, very scared. They're childrens' books because they are written for under-18s, not because they are suitable for all children.

I also have a feeling, that part of the plan was to write a series that would 'grow up' with the readers. Certainly, the ten year olds I knew who read the first book are now in their late teens...

Of course that falls down when you get ten year olds picking up the first book now, they're not going to wait a year or two before they read the next one in the series.

But I was reading some very grown up and dark books at 10, and it didn't do me any harm. Well, not much... :p

And if you want to see how dark childrens' books can get, I can highly recommend Philip Pullman's His Dark Materials trilogy. These are definately for the older teens though. They make Harry Potter look like a, well, a pretty bog-standard series about wizards and boarding schools, two popular subject matters in the long tradition of British children's writing....

Sorry. :rolleyes: Don't get me wrong, I do like Harry really. Honest.

Helga

Actually, I think this is one of the strengths of the books (and a weakness, which I'll speak to in a sec). Very much like the Little House books written by Laura Ingalls Wilder, I've appreciated how the tone and complexity of the books has matured along with the main characters. The first books are easier to read whilst the later ones are more difficult (bigger words, more complex scenes and plot lines).

But as my mother, who works in a bookstore, pointed out to me, the problem is that these books were written for young kids with the intention that the readers and Harry would grow up together. As Harry matured and the books became darker, ostensibly the readers would be able to handle it because they, too, had matured by an equal amount, at least.

But what happens now that all of the books are available and a 10 year old can pick them up and read them sequentially? My mom has a hard time recommending these to parents of the kids on the low end of the age range.

I haven't let my kids watch the movies, both because I think they are too scary and because I want them to read the books first. I'm thinking I'd like them to at least be 9 or 10 before getting started. The very idea of a hero who's parents were brutally murdered is a pretty tough subject.

As to the name change, I'd heard what Lab heard as well. It's funny but reading this book, I noticed a lot of places where the language was changed a tiny bit to suit the US audience, and I only noticed this because as I read I knew it wasn't the UK way to say things. For example, every time a character went to the hospital, they did exactly that - went to the hospital instead of going to hospital.

I read an article about her American editor - apparently she has both a British editor and an American editor, and they both get together to create a single "editorial suggestions" presentation.

Lynn

Now that I've had some time to let the shock of it all sink in, here are my thoughts. (As someone else has let the proverbial cat out of the bag, I no longer feel too bad about bandying names or thoughts about.)

Still, I guess I'd better say...

SPOILERS AHEAD!

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As I hinted in my previous post, I wasn't surprised that Dumbledore had died. I was pretty sure that he was going to die either in book six or in book seven, even before I heard that rumour a couple of months ago. I was, however, very surprised at the way he went. I had wondered whether he had been using Nicolas Flamel's elixir of life, so when the philosopher's stone was destroyed in book one, he was, essentially, signing his own death warrant.

That might, of course, still be the case and is the only way I can think of that would allow Snape to have killed Dumbledore and still be on the side of good. A 'hey, he was going to die anyway, and this keeps me in with the Dark Lord,' kind of thing. I can't see that happening, though. If it does, I won't be very happy because… Well, you'll see.

Snape. Ah, Snape. I'm not sure whether I feel impressed by J K Rowling that she got me to fall into the whole Snape is really a decent guy in search of redemption trap and therefore was shocked by his actions, or whether I feel really, really manipulated. Certainly, I feel… cheated, I guess. Then again, I'm sure I'm supposed to feel cheated, shocked, appalled… Isn't that what Dumbledore would have felt, too? Assuming that Snape really is evil, through and through.

The thing is, despite his nastiness, I actually liked Snape. He had depth. He was interesting. If he really is dark, then he is actually a very two-dimensional character who has been given dimension by the way others have perceived him, and the way the perceptions of the other characters have been filtered through to the reader. As I say, it's either very clever, or very manipulative.

Oh, and I agree. Dumbledore's reason for thinking that Snape had repented was unbelievably flimsy.

In a way, I want Snape to be good, because I care / cared for this character. But in another, if he does turn out to be good after everything in this book, I will feel doubly cheated. One about-face I can take. A second would be too much.

I was very disappointed with the way that the Slytherins were dealt with in this book, too. Are there really no good Slytherins? Snape. Evil. Blaise. As horrible as the rest of Malfoy's cronies. Malfoy… Well, the jury's out on him at the moment, because at least he failed to carry out the last part of his task. All the way through the series, I have thought that there must be decent Slytherins out there somewhere, but maybe I was wrong.

Harry. You know, the older he gets, the less I think I like him. I'm caught up in the stories, yes. And I'll be waiting to see what happens in book seven. But like Wendy, I'm not so excited about it as I have been about the previous ones. There is a darkness in Harry that I don't appreciate; I could just about forgive him for trying Crucio at the end of book five, but… Why doesn't anyone (other than Snape!) ever actually take him to task for this?

In fact, that brings me to another point. The characterisation of Harry here seemed almost… flat. He seemed very accepting of everything that had happened at the end of book five. I'd have liked to see him dealing with his grief. Okay, so I didn't expect an angst fest, but a little more depth would have been good. Same goes for his interaction with Dumbledore. I find it hard to understand Harry's loyalty to him, after everything Harry has found out / been through.

To be honest, rather than a book in its own right, it seemed to be setting things up for book seven, moving the characters into the places that J K R wants / needs them to be.

I agree with Wendy that the idea of Harry not returning to school leaves me cold. He really doesn't know enough to go against Voldemort.

(As an aside, here, I'd like to point out that I think the cleverest of Harry's generation are probably Fred and George Weasley. They may not have many formal qualifications, but look at what they create! Hermione is bright, certainly, but it is book learning. And Harry… Yes, he's brave and noble (when he's not trying to cast the cruciatus curse, that is), but he struggles to learn his spells. Compare that with what we know of Harry's parents, of Sirius, of Snape and Voldemort. They were all pretty creative in their own ways. I really don't get the sense that Harry is up there with them, so how he is going to tackle Voldemort is beyond me, at least at present.)

The relationships. I could have lived without the Harry and Ginny thing. It struck me as completely unnecessary. And contrived.

The best things about the book? Voldemort. Who we never actually saw. At least we've learned a lot more about him. He really is evil! Psychopathic evil, in my opinion. And, yes, there was shock value to Snape.

I remember that I got half way through Order of the Phoenix, thinking, okay, when is the plot going to begin, and then realising that, hey, the tensions with the Ministry of Magic was the plot. In this one, I had the same feeling. There was a lot of reading before anything really began to happen. However, in book five there was a kind of claustrophobic seige thing going on, which added tension for the reader. That was definitely lacking here.

Yes, I'm glad I read it. Yes, I read it compulsively. Yes, I will read book seven; I've invested too much time and emotion to want to duck out now. But, no, this isn't may favourite. Not by a long way.

Chris

P.S. On the Sorcerer's / Philosopher's Stone thing... The first time I read about Nicolas Flamel and his philosopher's stone, it was in an American fanzine, way before I came across Harry Potter. How ironic is that?

Thanks, Lynn and Chris for the wonderful spoilers. I don't have anything intelligent to add, though, because I just ordered my book yesterday.

I understand what you mean, Chris and Wendy, about being not so happy with Harry's decision not to go back to Hogwarts for his final year. I don't see him as a powerful enough wizard to be able to accomplish the tasks given to him. Part of me understands the desire to take Harry out of the school environment since he's fairly limited in what he could do from there and also the books have become almost formulaic where school is concerned. However, Harry out of Hogwarts seems like a completely different type of book.

Which leads me to mention something I saw in an Amazon review that I completely agree with. From what we've gotten out of HBP, Harry must find and destroy 4 Horcruxes, a couple of which are not specifiec, then find and kill Voldemort, while also possibly gaining revenge upon Snape. Such a quest is pretty extensive - I'm not sure how JKR plans to see it out in only one more volume. Do you think the last book will come in around 1000 or so pages? Seems like a lot of strings to tie up. Perhaps the Trio will split up to accomplish things more quickly.

Lynn

Oh, BTW - I've read some interviews with JKR and now have an idea of how Snape might be redeemed. This is pure speculation, but I don't want to say anything here if people wouldn't like to think about what might happen. Is it okay to say what I think might happen?

I'm with everyone on Dumbledore and Snape. Very unexpected and quite unbelievable. I was aware of the rumours, hoping against hope it wouldn't be true. It just doesn't make sense to me, for all the reasons already mentioned.

I had a high opinion of Dumbledore's judgement and find it very hard to believe he made a huge mistake with Snape. I'm sure there's more to it. After all, how many times did Harry raise his suspicions about Draco and Snape? And time and again did DD say Harry was wrong, while all along DD knew about Draco's intentions. So he should have known about Snape. Especially since he knew how good Snape was at Occlumency. There's definitely more to all this.

I do find Harry doesn't deal with panick very well. At first in the train, then on the island with DD and finally on the tower. Harry had a chance to save Dumbledore... he could have used a non-verbal charm like he tried in the train. I am quite surprised Rowling didn't look into that, or in more of Harry's deeper feelings. I feel there's more to explore there (yeah, I know that's the angst area, what can I say <g>).

In any case, I look forward to the last book. I'm sure we'll all be surprised at the outcome there.

Saskia

A major ditto. I mean, Harry either needs to change his mind and spectacularly finish up his schooling, or I'll just be waiting for him to be 86'ed on the first spell if he ever runs into Voldemort. Now then again, what happened with Harry's run-in with Voldey in Book 4? I need to re-read that book at some point and refresh my memory.

Ooh! I'm totally game for that!

Jen

What if Snape was under an imperious curse or something? Or had been ordered by Dumbledore to do so, and Harry finds the memory and can view it in the pensieve? And what about the pheonix thing in the end? I think that's going to turn out to be something more.

I think there's more to this than meets the eye. JK Rowling hasn't been one to resort to stereotypes yet.

What? You've never read LoTR? Or anything in the fantasy genre? There are a lot of angles to enjoy the books from. Everyone can get something out of it. You don't have to be physically a kid.

Haven't you ever heard of the phrase "a child at heart?"

I guess I was just blessed (or cursed) with a huge amount of imagination, but I find it difficult to really enjoy books that are not in the sci-fi/fantasy/horror genres.

There are some exceptions (Dean Koontz, for example, but he often uses supernatural/sci-fi elements in his stories, and some of the earlier Tom Clancy books were good). However, unless a general fiction book is very well-written, I tend to find them extremely boring.

I don't want to read about reality, I read to escape from reality. But maybe that's just me.

I feel really weird commenting on this as I have only read the first book, but I'm an avid watcher of the movies and my oldest daughter tells me the material in these books in pretty good detail and so I gotta think Emily, you have a strong case here.

There was this old movie called Dragonquest. Had the short blonde lawyer from Ali McBeal in it. He was a wizard's apprentice and when the wizard was killed, he had to carry the wizard's ashes to the cave where the dragon lived and dump the ashes in the water. The wizard came back strong enough to kill the dragon on its home turf.

Dumbledore had a pet Phoenix (I only know that from watching Chamber of Secrets so forgive my stating the obvious)so couldn't Dumbledore have some sort of contingency magic from the Phoenix to bring him back?

Sound plausible?

Just an idea from Aunty TEEEEJ.

TEEEEEJ

I wouldn't exactly say that Harry has trouble learning his spells like Ron. Harry's done pretty well on his O.W.L's and has gotten some pretty decent grades overall with an Outstanding on his Defense Against the Dark Arts. That's Harry's special talent. Only a wizard of great power could have produced a Patronus like he did. Of course he's no Hermione when it comes to sheer brilliance and magical ability, but he's still in the upper echelon of his class, and even Hermione couldn't compete with him in DADA. She only got an "Exceeds Expectations." He seems like he has trouble because he's inexperienced and is going up against the major baddies like Voldemort and now Snape, especially when he's using the Half-blood Prince's spells against him. Of course Snape blocks them with ease.

Now Moony, Wormtail, Padfoot, and Prongs were essentially a gang of troublemakers. They were very inventive in their spellcasting because they were "up to no good." Fred and George are the nearest comparison I'd make to that group. They're always trying to figure out unorthodox ways of doing things.

The most you can say of Harry is that he is not in the same vein as his father. Trouble finds him rather than the other way around. And he's muddled through quite well, going head-to-head with Voldemort four times and has come out on top 3 out of 4 times and has survived each encounter.

Yeah, this is what I suspect. Dumbledore wasn't stupid, so I think he'd have thought about something like that. He'd have never used a Horcrux, but perhaps, there's some other spell we don't know about. Or maybe it wasn't even Dumbledore, maybe it was someone else with polyjuice potion, but we were meant to think it was Dumbledore.

I realize that he has to be out of commission for a while so Harry can do what he has to do alone, but there's no reason he can't be brought back at the very end of book 7.

Yeah, Emily's thinking along the same lines I am. I'm predicting that Snape killing Dumbledore was intentional. That Snape and Dumbledore worked this out before hand - why else would Dumbledore be so anxious to get Snape to come to him when he was so weak? I'm guessing that Dumbledore knew that Draco had been directed to kill Dumbledore, and to save the young boy from that evil, Dumbledore told Snape to do it.

Meanwhile, I'm guessing that Dumbledore has arranged something like a Horcrux with Fawkes the phoenix. I'm predicting that when Fawkes flew away at the end, he's carrying Dumbledore's spirit or something. Dumbledore had assured Snape that in "killing" him it would only be temporary.

So Harry will face Voldemort alone, Snape will be revealed to be working for the side of good, and Dumbledore will appear again.

My predictions, for what they're worth.

Lynn

Lynn, Wendy et. al:
I read this commentary which tied up quite a few loose ends for me:

http://www.livejournal.com/users/garlandgraves/3409.html

What do you think?

Joy, thanks for the link. That was fascinating and seemed very reasonable as far as predictions go. My only difference in opinion is that I think the reason Snape killed Dumbledore is because the two had pre-arranged it. I'm not as convinced that Dumbledore knew he was certain to die so just went along with it. I'm still hanging on to my theory that the two teachers had planned that when the time was right, Snape would "appear" to kill Dumbledore, knowing that Dumbledore's spirit or essence was safe with Fawkes.

The reason I don't openly embrace the Dumbledore knew he was going to die idea is because I don't think he'd make Snape take on the title of murderer. I think Dumbledore decided to "let" Snape kill him knowing that Snape would only be condemned for a limited amount of time, his guilt becoming absolved when Dumbledore returns from the dead to reveal the entire thing was a plot.

Again, just speculation.

But I have to say that the idea that RAB is Regulus Black came to me the other night. I was struggling to figure out who had the initials RAB and remembered Sirius had a brother whose name started with an R. This LiveJournal post confirms my thoughts, although I didn't remember much of what was said about Regulus. I'll have to go back to OotP and reread.

This is fun.

Lynn

Impressive reasoning. I read the link, which makes a lot of sense. I can see how Dumbledore, knowing he will die anyway, is pleading not for his salvation but for death. I even mentioned a few posts ago that it wasn't like him to plead. But he's pleading not on his own behalf. As two accomplished wizards, it would be easy for Dumbledore to communicate silently in Snape's mind. Snape doesn't want to do it, but knows he must, hence his expression of loathing. He's hating himself, not Dumbledore, for what he must do.

If this is indeed true, then Dumbledore is in all likelihood dead for good. And Snape is likely still on the side of good. What could put in him better with the Dark Lord than to destroy the only wizard that Voldemort fears?

It also explains why he froze Harry, rather than Draco. He's dying anyway, so escape wouldn't matter to him.

Hi all! A few things...

Who says that Snape knew that Voldy was in Quirrell's Head? Snape was on Dumbledore's side as far as anyone could see. Voldy might not have said anything while waiting to see which side he WAS actually on.

I'm not convinced that what we've seen/heard is all of Dumbledore's reasons...not by a long shot.

Snape didn't tell Voldy where the Potter's were hiding. That was Pettigrew. Snape told Voldy that there was a prophecy that the one whom could defeat the Dark Lord was to be born as the seventh month dies. I doubt that he was keeping an eye on the Potters at that time. He had no idea to whom it applied to. The Potters didn't even go into hiding until after the prophecy was made (probably around the same time Voldy was told).

I am not sure what is going on... but JKR has said repeatedly that he is not a nice man. I think that somethings were for his cover, but not too much. Even if he IS on the side of the light, and even when (not if ) Voldy is defeated, I don't think he is suddenly going to change to be a nicer person. He IS a Slytherin... and THAT at least is not an act. He can be wanting of redemption from truely evil deeds without being a nice/decent guy.

He could have... if he could have moved. Nonverbal spells still require wand movement.

I don't think that this is the case... there are too many things that point to his actual death. For one, DD said that the splitting of the soul only happens upon killing someone, and that it is a very evil thing and tarnishes the rest of your soul. I doubt very highly that DD would do that. And even if he found a way without that, Fawkes is horrendeously upset and lamenting Dumbledore's death... would he be if he had DD's spirit with him? Secondly, a portrait appears of Dumbledore in Minerva's (new) office. You can only have one if you are truely dead.

Regarding R.A.S. I immediately thought of Regulus upon reading the "note" in the locket. It just seems to fit perfectly.

I think that the link that was given by Joy Moody is very well thought out. I agree with pretty much everything he has to say.
-Breanna

I just closed the book. Right now I'm a little shell shocked but these are some of my thoughts.

I don't know if reading fanfic has had an influence on me but this was like reading a huge fanfic. <g>

Favorite line: "I don't want to stay here over night, I want to find McLaggen and kill him."

Favorite response: "I'm afraid that would be under the heading of 'overexertion'"

OMG I nearly died laughing at the whole McLaggen Quidditch experience!! I haven't laughed that hard since reading Nekkid Quidditch the first time.

and Luna commentating!! OMG!! Could. Not. Breath.

Ships: Harry and Ginny :p
Won Won and Hermione :p
Tonks and Lupin
Fluer really surprised me, not as shallow as you would have thought she would be. Good for her!

I found the MoldyVort back story fascinating! I like learning about him and what drove him to become what he has.

Dumbledor's death was not as shocking as I knew it was coming, but the circumstances around it, whoo. I think I take back what I stated earlier about Snape. If I were both Snape or Draco I wouldn't fancy on running into Harry in a dark alley.

All in all I enjoyed the book better than I did OoTP. I cried just as much with Dumbledor as I did with Sirius. How much more can Harry take.

I'm glad that Ron and Hermione plan on sticking with him. I love that trio-ness.

One of the moderators on a nfic list I am on commented that it paved the way for a nice threesome. <VEG>

Okay I'll leave it there. Want to troll some of the HP live journal sites to see what my favorite Harry/Hermione authors are saying.

It's going to be a long wait for book 7.

<sniffle> Just finished the last page. I can't say that it was like fanfic, 'cause I've never read much in the way of Harry Potter. <shrug> Nekkid Quidditch is about the only one I've read. (For those that haven't read it, it's hilarious) However, I do like that she started pairing people off.

Good book. I just wish that Dumbledore hadn't died. And as for Snape doing the killing and really being on Voldemort's side, well, I'm not sure what to believe. That LJ entry makes a heck-of-a-lot of sense. Then again, Snape has *never* been a nice person. I've been conflicted about him for quite sometime.

I do have to say that I loved Crabb and Goyle as little girls. <snigger> And the bit about Mr. Weasley's greatest ambition being to find out how planes stay up is great. Of course, I have yet to see anything as funny as Peeves obeying Fred and George to get rid of Umbridge in OoTP.

BrightFeather