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I'm very sorry, about using your name, Kae. I didn't realise you didn't want it used.

I'm not sure my difficulty with Lois deathfic is exactly the same thing as excluding some writers from a lists of favourites. Deathfic is a genre, and so my dislike of it is independent of the writer. I could be crazy about one fic you'd written, but just not have read a deathfic you'd written because it's , well, a deathfic. You'd make my favoutites list, but not with the deathfic.

But I guess we'll have to agree to disagree about whether some writers find it a downer to read a thread with several "favourites" lists, none of which they're on, or whether it even matters if they care.

Favourite catregory - well what Yvonne said:) But also a category that got dropped - Best Villain - lots of fun with that one.

c.

Oooh, what an intriguing discussion this has turned in to.

Yvonne, I'm so glad you reminded me of this. I loved this category too. And I look forward to a refresher on what new characters were created this year by various authors. I hope this category makes it to the Kerths this coming year <ahem... hint, hint>

-- MR

Hmmm.

Ok it's actually hard for me to pick a favorite category! But there are 2 I really like...

Best Episode Adaptation.
You can never rewrite Season 1 enough for me! I'll read a PML story or BatP/HoL over and over and over... :p

I need to stop looking at the past categories LOL. Best Epic Drama had a great couple of years. I love sinking my teeth into a huge story!

Also, I loved it back when Elseworlds could fill up a category all on its own. I think it's so innovative when authors can create a different meeting situation or even career for L&C and still have the dynamic mesh...

But anyway, it will be great to see which categories are filled this year.

Has anyone noticed any rashes of certain kind of story this year? Just for example, I was looking through the past winners saying 'oh, I remember the year of New Krypton' and 'that was the year of TOGOM' or 'I cried a lot last year' etc... :p

JD

Thanks, Labby. I think I will just let this one go wherever it goes.

And right now, it seems to be going to towards favorite categories. Mine probably is Best Tearjerker. There are very few stories that have made me cry (I can only think of one offhand, actually) but I really love ones that succeed.

Okay, want to add another favourite category - does this look like I can't make up my mind?

But best Vignette.

Because, in a very limited space, a vignette can capture the essence of what Is "Lois and Clark". Or be wildly funny. Or poignant. Because, to succeed it has to be both well and tightly written. Because I can't write one.

c.

I would too. I love the older stuff, even those of people who've been gone for a long time. Gorn anyone? I think a lot of the newer people would love it too if they knew it was out there. The fanfic quotes games might give them more exposure. I know both authors I refer to are ones who wrote some of the foundational stories on the Archive. But a rec thread is a great idea.

I can sort of see your point here, Carol, which does leave me a little torn. On the one hand, I do like recs. I'll be honest and admit that these days I tend to only read stories someone I trust recs to me because of time concerns. Also, reminders of old stories I liked lead to me rereading.

On the other, I do realise that some authors are extremely close to their work and really do get hurt when people don't talk about it. I personally don't deal with this, but that's probably because I've got a whopping total of two stories up and can't realistically expect to be cited with that number. Also, I've looked up to some authors for a substantial chunk of my life. Even if I had a lot of great stories to cite, I'm not sure I'd be upset by their omission from a list just as I'm sure T.S. Eliot never felt slighted when Shakespeare was mentioned while he himself was omitted while Marlowe definitely did have that problem.

Do you feel it would be less of a touchy subject if we were talking about the older fanfics rather than new ones/new authors? I just wonder if older fanfic writers might be more immune to that sort of feeling? I wouldn't want to make people feel badly, but I also see the value of suggesting stories for people to read. What a conundrum.

I think we've seen quite a few cross-overs in the short time I've been here if I'm not mistaken--not only the various SR ones, but a Buffy one too, I believe. How many are needed to "fill" a category? Or would those get dumped into an 'Elseworlds' category?

About the not giving recs for fear of making writers left out, it seems like Kae said similar to walking on eggshells. There are individual fdk threads for authors to get encouragement and support. Now, if someone feels like talking about a story that particularly touched them to the community, I see no reason why that should affect X author that isn't mentioned.

We can't all be William Faulkners and not getting a shout out in a Kerth thread should be no reason to get discouraged. Plenty of great actors have never even been nominated for an Oscar.

I've occasionally been referenced, and I have to admit that I love it when people talk about me (in a good way).

It's a little disappointing to not be talked about. Unless you are in a really small category (Elseworld stories where Clark is Batman), and people list all the other stories except yours, then all not getting talked about means that people haven't gotten around to you yet.

Truth is, I like reading recommendations because they give me ideas to read stories I might otherwise not read. Also, the more ego stroking people get, the more motivated they are to keep writing. That can't be all bad. <g>

Hi, Carol,

The stories on the archive's What's New page do currently go back only to May (we prune the What's New page to keep it reasonably short and fast-loading), but earlier stories are still around in the What's New format. After they fall off the end of the list, we put them in their own monthly By Date pages. So stories from January to April 2006 are still accessible in the What's New format.

With By Date you can step back in time all the way to April 1996. Lois & Clark fanfic was already a few hundred stories old by the time the archive came into being, so it's harder to organize the earlier ones by date.

There's a link at the top of What's New pointing to the By Date pages, but I forgot to include the more obvious link at the bottom of the page when we moved to the new look. Just added it back. It's more intuitive, I think. Thanks for the jog.

I like your idea of writing reviews for stories, and also for finding ways to recommend older stories. The fanfic quote/opening lines games have been lots of fun. Wasn't there a recommendation recently for "Strange Visitors"? I went back and reread it the other day. It's one of my favorites. And one of my "if I were a movie producer" fantasy picks.

-- Lauren

Shayne wrote:

OK, I would like to make a blanket recommendation here to anyone who hasn't read Shayne's stories: READ THEM!

The short ones, the long ones, they're ALL FANTASTIC!

Shayne, there's something about your voice and use of language that really resonates with me. Every sentence you write says what it says but also seems to say so much more. How do you do that? You always surprise us. When I think I know where the story is heading, you fork onto another plot path. Your characters are complex -- and remote in a way that makes me want to climb through the words and give them a hug. The mood you set is adult and intelligent, and like somewhere in the distance a saxophone is wailing sadly. When I want to recommend a story to someone who's never heard of fanfic, I usually point them toward "Hearts and Diamonds." That story gives me goosebumps on every read.

Please write more.

-- Lauren

In my previous fandom there were authors everyone fawned over and then there were the newbies like myself. I've realized in my limited time here that this community is a much nicer, much more supportive place, but I still live with the memory of what I knew before.

I remember writing my heart out and not garnering much notice. I hated it. When I and some of the authors I was friends with finally did start to get noticed some of the more established authors backstabbed and gossiped and were just generally unpleasant. So when I see my name come up with mentions of Kerths I have this confused reaction. I'm elated at the notice - I really, truly am. But a part of me is terrified because I fear the backlash. For what it's worth, I don't fear a backstabbing campaign in this community. I do fear that people will see my name or a story of mine mentioned and decide "eh, everyone else is voting for her/that one, I'll pick someone else".

Just my paranoid, conflicted two cents...

Okay, I'm confused. There are two different kinds of Kerths? There are regular Kerths and Alt-Kerths? Somebody needs to explain this to me.

And someone mentioned older stories. I thought only the stories that had come out in a certain period of time were eligible. Am I wrong?

I'd like a bit of an explanation here about all this. I found the kerth awards site a bit confusing. (But maybe that's because my aunt just died...)

No, not really. Recently, I've been co-ordinating new Writers' Showcase Interviews for Annesplace. I was slightly...don't really know what the word might be...amused maybe...to note in passing that, back in the day, in the section for recommending fanfic by other author my own stories got mentioned quite regularly. Whereas they haven't been mentioned once in the interviews I've gathered in so far! Hey, finally I'm a has-been! So, to be honest, Carol, I can't say it really bothers me. But I can say that I've had the experience. <g>

That's not to say that I don't understand the perspective of someone who it does bother. But then I don't think I said anything in my previous post to indicate that I didn't. There's a difference between pointing out to someone that they've broken no forum rules and that trying to avoid another board member's hurt feelings is a courtesy and saying, "You're wrong to feel bad."

And, I've spent a lot of time in the past worrying about those who are discouraged by not getting a Kerth nomination. We're very much the victims of our success there, I fear. Each year some terrific stories get left in the dust and don't make the list just through sheer pressure of numbers. I know that each year I have more than one pang of regret for those which didn't, but which are wonderful stories that in most any other fandom would not only make the noms list, but actually win the awards. So, yes, I do have a great deal of empathy with that point of view. I've often tried to think of a solution to the problem, but so far haven't come up with anything. But do I think that means we should abandon the Kerths and stop rewarding our top talent? No, not at all.

There's also, imo, a great difference between praising your favourite stories and recommending them to readers who may have missed them and lobbying for them to receive a Kerth. And, to be honest, I can't say I've seen much of the latter on this thread so far.

I guess it's a glass half empty/full situation. If someone says, "Hey, Story X was great! It's on my personal Kerth list", then it tends to be viewed in one of two ways. Some people will see it as a/ Praising a story you enjoyed, much in the manner you do in fdk threads and some people will see it as b/ lobbying. Now, to me, lobbying would be "Story X is brilliant! You must add it to your Kerth list or you're a moron!". But I guess it all comes down to personal perspective. Like most things in the world. Is praising one particular story just praising a story? Or is it slighting all the other authors you didn't mention? For me it's the former. But I realise others have the opposite opinion.

And, I do have to say, Carol, that I think you do your own stories a great disservice here. I've seen few recommendations threads or fanfic quote threads where your stories aren't mentioned. Check out the current ones and I think you'll find you're well represented. I know that I remember your old stories very fondly and have often chosen them in those threads myself, in the past.

Which is another point. Aren't fanfic quote threads recommendation threads in all but name? You began one yourself, Carol. A large majority of members obviously find them fun. They've always been popular in the past and obviously still are. Yet, I'm sure some authors haven't been mentioned (yet! I think the current one looks set to run forever! <G>) and could have hurt feelings as a result. So, should we think about avoiding them, too? I'd really hope not, personally, because I find them enormously fun. And they've often led me to great stories.

I guess the point I'm making here is that we could go on indefinitely, pruning out all of the fun on the forum. Rec threads, fanfic quote threads, Kerths...just because we're afraid and anxious to avoid slighting anyone. I don't think that's either logical, possible or even desirable. It would make for a very boring fandom imo. Where do we draw the line? Where does it end? The fact is that this forum is all about fanfic. Writing it, posting it, discussing it. I don't much see how it could continue if you begin to censor or discourage the latter. It's inevitable that in a forum which focuses on fanfic, you're going to get people talking about it. And that includes recs and praise, here and there.

Actually, there are three Kerths. <G> Just to confuse you further.

The Kerths deal with fanfic up to the PG13 rating.

The nKerths deal with nfic only.

The Alt Kerths deal with all the other talented things people do which aren't fanfic. Music vides, websites, artwork...and so on.

If that was the reference I made to older stories, I was referring to them purely in the sense of someone starting a thread recommending their favourite ones to other readers. Not in the sense of connection with the Kerths.

LabRat

At no point was I suggesting we do that in my posts, either, Labrat so not sure why you've said that. In fact I suggested a couple of things which might address people's concerns about not being up on all the stories out there. After all, we're all pretty aware of the stories that have been posted recently, but it's those January stories...

The Kerths is after all, an awards event. What I was suggesting though is that we be sensitive in the process of getting to the Kerths.

Whether you or I have ever been on anyone's list of favourites is a bit of a red herring, simply because, well, we have been on a couple of lists.

LOL. Not much subtly there at all. But why mention a story is on your Kerth list if you wreren't intending, among other things, of course, to influence others? I can see that sort of "listing" discussion in an IRC chat where you can debate the pros and cons of those stories you're thinking about nominating. You know, the "Fic X was beautifully written, but there was this Grand Canyon plot hole" sort of thing.

as for the fanfic quote game - well, you've got a point there, Labrat. I do agree they can be discouraging when you don't get quoted or when you're quoted so late in the game you feel like you're "bottom of the barrel".

I started the "opening lines quotes" because I was interested to see what types of openings grabbed people's attention. But that sounds like a weak defence now.

My point through all this is to ask for some thoughtfulness for the feelings of those excluded from these lists during our travel to the Kerths. I've never posted a Kerth favourites lists on the mbs, although I've e-mailed writers after reading a story to say I'd enjpyed it so much I'd be Kerthing it. That's private, though.

c.

coming back to Kerth categories.

I was reminded of this by Labrat's lobbying comment. So blatant lobbying warning!

We need a "Best Inspector Henderson" category. (This marks my third year lobbying for this. )

c.

I've never participated in the Kerths, as either a writer or a reader, nor have I ever been involved in a fandom that had such a well-organized awards system. So I'm interested to watch this process play out and see what it's like, and I don't really have strong feelings one way or another about what the 'road to the Kerths' should look like.

I do, however, have kind of strong feelings about this:

It's readily apparent that IRC is an integral part of this fandom and has been for some time, and obviously fics are going to be discussed in there. But I don't participate in chats - don't have the time - and I'm sure I'm not the only writer for whom that's true. I don't assume that people are going to be talking about my fics at all, and I don't think it would hurt my feelings if there was Kerth discussion on the boards and I wasn't mentioned. It would make me uncomfortable, however, if I found out that people were discussing a "plot hole the size of the Grand Canyon" in one of my stories in a chat in which I wasn't a participant. I have review threads for that, and readers are welcome to point out that plot hole or anything else, but it sure is nicer if they do it where I can see it and respond to it, or fix it, or maybe improve my writing as a result of it, rather than in a chat where I'm not likely to hear of it.

I do appreciate your point - that by confining these discussions to chats, there's no public record and fewer feelings might be hurt. And I've said a hundred times that once a writer posts a story, he or she has no control over what is said about it, where it's said, or whether anything is said at all (and yes, sometimes that silence can be deafening and more painful than a so-so review). Obviously, this extends to chats as well. If I post a story in a fandom where people get together and chat, there's not one thing I can do about the fact that people might eventually get around to saying something about me. I get that, I really do. It's just that if it's something negative, I'd a whole lot rather it be said to my face, as it were, rather than behind my back. That's just my personal opinion, of course, and is worth what you paid for it

Best,

Caroline

I do apologise for the Grand Canyon comment, Caroline - I intended it as a bit of an over-the-top joke.

Haven't actually ever heard anyone use that hyperbolic metaphor in IRC . But I have come into IRC in the past when the fics of people who weren't present were being discussed, although mostly the discussions were even-handed, not to mention brief. I haven't been in IRC in some time now and so I can't speak for what currently happens. However, I can certainly understand your unease with that - have to say I felt it, too, at the time.

Oh, god, yes. couldn't agree more with that point.

And, as someone who has posted fics to these mbs, I would second your hope, that comments in the feedback thread for any story would include pointing out plot holes, etc as well as the cheers. I know I've found that sort of thing useful. Although, of course, I have also been very pleased to just have a "reading it and liking" it comment.

As for your lack of distress on never making anyone's favourite's list, I am in awe. But I know that not all the writers here feel that way.

The Kerths are a good 5 months away. That's a long time for some writers to be getting the 'chopped liver' message, imo.

But it does give us a lot of time to go back and pick up the stories we missed earlier in the year. That's why I think that a list of January stories uploaded ot the archive would be helpful. Then maybe after a couple of weeks, the February list, etc. But this may be difficult to do, so I don't know how reasonable my request is.

btw, I don't have stories in the Kerths this year. Thought maybe I should say that.

c.

Just my two cents on this touch and go subject...

I think the Kerths are wonderful, and while I'm in awe that I would be mentioned personally on this thread - I highly doubt that I'll be taking home a Kerth this year - there's just too much good competition (it's like with the Superbowl... I've come to realize I may live and die without seeing my team in there - hee hee.) And I am so totally okay with that - the Kerth thing, not the Superbowl, that really hacks me off.

I write as a way of relieving stress. I have a few health problems that prevent me from doing a lot of other things that I might enjoy doing - but so far my ability to type hasn't been impeded any . And I get great satisfaction from being able to write stories and share them on these wonderful message boards.

What I enjoy most of all is fdk on my stories - good, bad, public, private, or otherwise. That's what makes it rewarding for me. But even if these boards didn't exist and there wasn't a way to get fdk, I'd still probably write because it's therapeutic... and if nothing else, maybe I could still entertain my beta readers.

So anything beyond that... is just gravy. I have my own personal opinions on who I think should win a Kerth - and my own favorites... okay, so maybe I'm a little partial since I beta one of the writers... but still.

I like the comment about walking on eggshells. This is a respectful community where we come to share exciting and interesting news but also to discuss our favorite Lois and Clark fiction. I don't think anyone should be restricted from what they want to say as long as what is said is respectful and appropriate for what's being discussed (ex. no flaming).

If we can get on here and discuss our personal views on where we stand with respects to deathfic and abortion and feminist rights and other stuff... then we should be able to get on here and discuss what stories we've read during the year and think deserve another look or perhaps, dare I mention it, a nomination.

I'll just go ahead and put myself out there on the chopping block and say that I personally would be stunned if both Sue and Caroline don't win "at least" one Kerth award. I think they are extremely talented authors... and I love their writing style and I don't mind saying so. It doesn't mean that anyone else has to agree with me - it's just my opinion (and like my nose, everyone else has one too) and it also doesn't mean that I don't think the rest of the authors out there aren't talented... not in the least. I've always said we have a wealth of talent on these boards... so much so that it's impossible (for me at least) to keep up with everything that's being written. I rely on the fdk threads and what I see other people writing about authors and stories... in fact, that's how/why I started reading Caroline's work (sorry I'm still delinquent on fdk Caroline - been busy).

And on one last note - I agree with Caroline - it would distress me to think that people were discussing my writing in a negative way when I wasn't around to respond or hear what they had to say. I'd much rather they tell me to my face on my fdk thread or in an e-mail (and I've rec'd a few e-mails of that kind).

Anyway, I've babbled on long enough. I was just in a particularly spunky mood this morning and thought I'd add my two worthless cents in...

-- MR

P.S. -- Carol, I love inspector Henderson. What a cool category! I second that motion... I remember seeing several stories with characterizations of him in them this year...

The Chiefs in the Super Bowl? Bwwaaaaaaaa! OMG - I laughed so hard it hurts now.

I have to ditto what Caroline said. People have mentioned talking about a story of mine on IRC and it just *kills* me that I don't know what was said. Was it good? Was it bad? Was it indifferent?

I am so going to slink into the ether now and just quit talking.

Unless someone brings up the Chiefs as Super Bowl contenders again.

Sue (whose team WON last year, but they suck big time this year so I feel your pain, DJ)

Okay, this is really off topic and I'm going to be quiet after this, I promise...

But Sue! Awww, you're killing me girl! But whose team lost to the RAIDERS last week, hmmm? I mean - the RAIDERS - come on -- cough*Steelers*cough (no offense of course to you Raider fans out there - I'm just picking on Sue...) Love ya Sue...

Okay, and to get my post back on topic...

I think there should be a category again this year for "Best Revelation" - I believe that category was in there last year (wasn't it?) and has probably been in there many times before... but dang, we've had some awesome revelation scenes this year.

<DJ slinks off to join Sue - and smack her with her 'terrible towel' >